Relocating a closet panel - AFCI question

[delfadelfa]

I'm relocating a closet panel, in a slab house, two stud section over on the same wall but in the bedroom.
In the closet won't pass inspection and the home owner wants to keep the closet and not remove the doors and make it part of the bedroom. I am gutting the old fuse panel and using it to splice the 8 circuits that I need to move. What are the requirements, if any for AFCI protection?

I did one just like this last year without any AFCI protection and it passed inspection but I may not get the same inspector on this one.

I another house, I am relocating a panel that is in a 32 inch high, 25 feet deep, crawl space. I will add a new service, outside disconnect, feeder in the crawl space, sub panel in the garage. Removing old panel and adding junction boxes to splice about 10 circuits that I will run to the new panel. The other circuits will be long enough to reach the new panel. What are the requirements, if any for AFCI protection?

I checked the code book and could not find anything. Thanks

 

[Ponchik]

If the circuit is being modified or extended then AFCI is required. But check with your local AHJ.

 

[delfadelfa]

If the circuit is being modified or extended then AFCI is required. But check with your local AHJ.

What it they are extended in EMT? If I install AFCI breakers and they trip because of share neutrals on old 3-way switch wiring or other shared neutrals. Will I have to rewire the house until I can stop the AFCI breaker from tripping?

 

[don_resqcapt19]

The 2014 code addresses this and permits existing circuits to be extended up to 6' without triggering the requirement to provide AFCI protection. Under the 2011 code, you need to check with the AHJ.

 

[mjf]

The 2014 code addresses this and permits existing circuits to be extended up to 6' without triggering the requirement to provide AFCI protection. Under the 2011 code, you need to check with the AHJ.

Any idea if there are any specifics in the 2014 as to precisely where a circuit can be extended without adding AFCI protection?

Is it specific to the panel end of the circuit (as in the OP's question), or can I extend 6' to a new outlet at any point of the existing circuit?

 

[ptonsparky]

The 2014 code addresses this and permits existing circuits to be extended up to 6' without triggering the requirement to provide AFCI protection. Under the 2011 code, you need to check with the AHJ.

I haven't received my copy yet. 6' from the extension of the neutral or the hot? Yes, being a SA, but I can see the and hear the questions now. October should be so fun.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Any idea if there are any specifics in the 2014 as to precisely where a circuit can be extended without adding AFCI protection?

Is it specific to the panel end of the circuit (as in the OP's question), or can I extend 6' to a new outlet at any point of the existing circuit?

You can extend/relocate up to 6' at any point, but you cannot add an additional outlet or device.
Note, I don't have a copy of the 2014 yet...this is from watching Mike's live feed as he is working on the 2014 code change DVD.

 

[Sierrasparky]

If the circuit is being modified or extended then AFCI is required. But check with your local AHJ.

That really depends on the code cycle your location is using.

2002 up to the AHJ - I would say New Outlets only

2005 Up to the AHJ - I would say on new outlets only

2008 - I would generally say up to interpetation of the AHJ.

2011 you have no choice install AFCI as per code in the areas required by other portions of the code.

2014 you get a 6 foot pass on using them unless you add to the circuit.

If I had a customer and explained to them these rules and that each year there was a different interpetation they would think I was Crazy. The CMP and Electrical lobbyist are as rediculous as our state and federal government is . I think the CMP cannot leave the code alone. They feel they have to make a change or they are not doing there job. Make up your mind CMP!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[templdl]

Did they ever come out with an AFCI or GFCI that in compatible with a 'home run' circuit? When 2 circuit share a neutral as is common with older wiring methods that could be an issue.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Yes,
Murray - Siemens, Sqd i think
Have a murray siemens on the truck

 

[GoldDigger]

Did they ever come out with an AFCI or GFCI that in compatible with a 'home run' circuit? When 2 circuit share a neutral as is common with older wiring methods that could be an issue.

AFAIK only when it is an MWBC. Any other neutral sharing would have to be sorted out by rewiring.
(Although I guess if you had a 120/240 3-wire panel with both L1 and L2 connected to one 120V source, a GFCI designed for MWBC would still work. The neutral would have to be double sized though, so the breaker might not support that.....)

 

[mjf]

Any idea if there are any specifics in the 2014 as to precisely where a circuit can be extended without adding AFCI protection?

Is it specific to the panel end of the circuit (as in the OP's question), or can I extend 6' to a new outlet at any point of the existing circuit?

You can extend/relocate up to 6' at any point, but you cannot add an additional outlet or device.
Note, I don't have a copy of the 2014 yet...this is from watching Mike's live feed as he is working on the 2014 code change DVD.

Thank you Don:thumbsup:

 

[augie47]

You can extend/relocate up to 6' at any point, but you cannot add an additional outlet or device.
Note, I don't have a copy of the 2014 yet...this is from watching Mike's live feed as he is working on the 2014 code change DVD.

This is from the 2014 ROP, but based on Mike's Live Feed I think the wording is the same:
Exception: AFCI protection shall not be required where the extension of the existing conductors is not more than 1.8 m (6 ft.) and does not include any additional outlets or devices.

You might let your inspector know about it as inspectors often base gray-area decisions on upcoming Code changes.


[

 

[Sierrasparky]

AFAIK only when it is an MWBC. Any other neutral sharing would have to be sorted out by rewiring.
(Although I guess if you had a 120/240 3-wire panel with both L1 and L2 connected to one 120V source, a GFCI designed for MWBC would still work. The neutral would have to be double sized though, so the breaker might not support that.....)

HUH?
What other type of sharing a nuetral other than a MWBC would there be.

 

[GoldDigger]

HUH?
What other type of sharing a nuetral other than a MWBC would there be.

Well, if you go back to K&T almost anything could happen. Not nearly as likely after that.

 

[templdl]

AFAIK only when it is an MWBC. Any other neutral sharing would have to be sorted out by rewiring.
(Although I guess if you had a 120/240 3-wire panel with both L1 and L2 connected to one 120V source, a GFCI designed for MWBC would still work. The neutral would have to be double sized though, so the breaker might not support that.....)

I would like to find a real life example where there was a 120/120 3w circuit with a 200% neutral.

 

[templdl]

Yes,
Murray - Siemens, Sqd i think
Have a murray siemens on the truck

So it's essentially a 2p AFCI with a common trip.

 

[Sierrasparky]

So it's essentially a 2p AFCI with a common trip.

Yup and pricey too. Way more than 2 single pole.

 

[GoldDigger]

I would like to find a real life example where there was a 120/120 3w circuit with a 200% neutral.

The main place you would find it is in an off-grid building using a 120V output inverter or generator and wiring the building through an inexpensive 120/240 panel with more than half of the slots occupied. Agreed they are more likely to just use separate neutrals than a common neutral.

There are also folks who switch between a 120/240 primary system as originally wired to a 120-only backup system using a transfer switch and feeding both L1 and L2 in parallel.
Those who end up doing it right have 200% neutrals (or 50% ungrounded wires, depending on how you want to look at it ).

Many people would not call that a real life though.

 

[iwire]

The main place you would find it is in .....

A third world country.