Delaware enacts Snitch Law

[Sierrasparky]

It appears that it is a crime with penalty not to report. A misdemeanor.

 

[kwired]

It appears that it is a crime with penalty not to report. A misdemeanor.

Well it appears anymore that just getting out of bed in the morning is a misdemeanor hmy:

 

[mgookin]

For clarification, here in FL we don't license apprentices & journeymen. We only license the EC. Only the license holder is compelled to rat out unlicensed activity, which means someone engaging in construction contracting without the EC (or GC or whatever) license. He has incentive to do so as well because he's paying insurance, etc. while the cheat is underbidding him because he does not have the overhead.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I would bet that in most states that reguire a license it would be grounds for discipline to hire a unlicensed person that should be.
However this is the first law I have seen that it is a misdemeanor not to rat out the person and implicate oneself. I say that because how would it come that you are working with a unlicensed person. Either you hired them or your boss hired them. If you were responsible for first checking then there would be no exuse to have hired them in the first place. So then there would have been no reason to rat them out.
Kinda violates the right to self incrimination .

The current way of life is comming to a screeching halt. No freedoms

 

[kwired]

I would bet that in most states that reguire a license it would be grounds for discipline to hire a unlicensed person that should be.
However this is the first law I have seen that it is a misdemeanor not to rat out the person and implicate oneself. I say that because how would it come that you are working with a unlicensed person. Either you hired them or your boss hired them. If you were responsible for first checking then there would be no exuse to have hired them in the first place. So then there would have been no reason to rat them out.
Kinda violates the right to self incrimination .

The current way of life is comming to a screeching halt. No freedoms

I also don't think the person hiring should be penalized if the employee produces false credentials. Why is it the employers problem beyond some reasonable effort to verify the validity of a license?

Good example but in a different discussion is some sting operations I have heard of in the past where they nailed retailers for selling alcoholic beverages to minors by actually sending in minors with false ID's. I can't say just what the false ID consisted of, but if I were the retailer and the ID seemed to be believable to belong to the person bearing it, why would I be at fault in that situation? It is illegal to produce such a false ID, but apparently not in a sting operation.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I also don't think the person hiring should be penalized if the employee produces false credentials. Why is it the employers problem beyond some reasonable effort to verify the validity of a license?

Good example but in a different discussion is some sting operations I have heard of in the past where they nailed retailers for selling alcoholic beverages to minors by actually sending in minors with false ID's. I can't say just what the false ID consisted of, but if I were the retailer and the ID seemed to be believable to belong to the person bearing it, why would I be at fault in that situation? It is illegal to produce such a false ID, but apparently not in a sting operation.

I know they do that in CA. That should be a crime.

But this crap making it a crime for not reporting a coworker is plain Naziism.

 

[JDBrown]

What if the laws said you must report motorists that you see commit violations? :huh:

What if nearly every incident seen was reported if the above were true?

I guess we may have safer roads.

I just had a conversation about this yesterday with my nine-year-old daughter. We saw somebody run a red light, and she told me, "Call 9-1-1!" We then got to have the expected conversation about what is and what is not an emergency, but it also led to the question of how the police know people are running red lights if we don't call in and report them.

"Well," I told her, "usually people only get a ticket for things like running red lights if a police officer is there to see them do it. Although, some intersections have cameras that are set to take a picture when a car is running a red light." I then explained the concept of traffic cameras to her, and she thought it was a great idea ... until I prodded her to think a little deeper about the issue.

"Wait, so if someone borrows your car and runs a red light, you get the ticket? That's not fair!"

Unfortunately, many of the people who make our laws look at these things the same way a nine-year-old does, only they're not willing to listen when a grownup comes along and tries to get them to actually think about the unintended consequences. Hopefully my daughter will learn to look deeper on her own, without prodding from Mom or Dad, before too many years go by.

...
But this crap making it a crime for not reporting a coworker is plain Naziism.

Requiring people to snitch on their neighbors (or coworkers) makes me think of the KGB first, but I guess the Nazis works too. The very idea of such a law makes me feel just a little bit slimy.

 

[kwired]

I just had a conversation about this yesterday with my nine-year-old daughter. We saw somebody run a red light, and she told me, "Call 9-1-1!" We then got to have the expected conversation about what is and what is not an emergency, but it also led to the question of how the police know people are running red lights if we don't call in and report them.

"Well," I told her, "usually people only get a ticket for things like running red lights if a police officer is there to see them do it. Although, some intersections have cameras that are set to take a picture when a car is running a red light." I then explained the concept of traffic cameras to her, and she thought it was a great idea ... until I prodded her to think a little deeper about the issue.

"Wait, so if someone borrows your car and runs a red light, you get the ticket? That's not fair!"

Unfortunately, many of the people who make our laws look at these things the same way a nine-year-old does, only they're not willing to listen when a grownup comes along and tries to get them to actually think about the unintended consequences. Hopefully my daughter will learn to look deeper on her own, without prodding from Mom or Dad, before too many years go by.


Requiring people to snitch on their neighbors (or coworkers) makes me think of the KGB first, but I guess the Nazis works too. The very idea of such a law makes me feel just a little bit slimy.

Then there are the lawmakers that think they are exempt from the very laws they make. Heard a story from an inspector once about how a state senator was having issues getting power at a lake cabin, or some type of vacation home anyway. Inspector said if he had followed proper procedure, filed permit and had proper inspections, yada, yada, yada... Senator informed him he needed power by the weekend as he was having a party at the place, and kind of assumed since he was a state senator he should get his way. Inspector told him he better find a generator, because he was not going to have utility power until the permits and inspections were in compliance and that was probably not happening before the weekend.

 

[GoldDigger]

Requiring people to snitch on their neighbors (or coworkers) makes me think of the KGB first, but I guess the Nazis works too. The very idea of such a law makes me feel just a little bit slimy.

Whether the Delaware law requires snitching on coworkers is arguable and depends on your definition of coworkers. Reading the entire text instead of just the OP's summary, it is clear that management is required to "snitch" on themselves and indirectly on people below them in the management/worker hierarchy.

Whether this violates guarantees against self incrimination depends on whether there are criminal (not civil) penalties against the snitch who complies.
Whether the employee who faked his credentials is a coworker of the person who hired or supervised him is also open to debate.

But, all that aside, I do get your point.

 

[Sierrasparky]

A misdemeanor for not Snitching........
Where do they go next.

 

[norcal]

A misdemeanor for not Snitching........
Where do they go next.

They may refer to it as a "Mandated Reporter" not a "Snitch". :thumbsdown:

 

[Fulthrotl]

A misdemeanor for not Snitching........
Where do they go next.

probably to Starbucks. it's coffee time.
one bad law per day is sufficient, don't you think?

here's the original post:

"Duty to Report Unlicensed Persons

In order to prevent unlicensed persons from performing
electrical work, owners, operators, managers and supervisors
of a business performing electrical services are now required to:

Report any unlicensed person performing electrical work to the
Board, in writing, within 10 days of learning that the person is
not properly licensed.

Verify that employees or independent contractors are licensed
before allowing them to perform electrical services...."

you don't report YOUR employees status, you VERIFY your
employees status. if an employee, your co workers status,
as well as your own, won't need to be reported, as it will have
been VERIFIED by your employer before being allowed to work.

now, the first part... the reporting part.... that is what you are
supposed to do to your COMPETITORS who are getting an unfair
advantage by using uncertified people.

 

[kwired]

probably to Starbucks. it's coffee time.
one bad law per day is sufficient, don't you think?

here's the original post:

"Duty to Report Unlicensed Persons

In order to prevent unlicensed persons from performing
electrical work, owners, operators, managers and supervisors
of a business performing electrical services are now required to:

Report any unlicensed person performing electrical work to the
Board, in writing, within 10 days of learning that the person is
not properly licensed.

Verify that employees or independent contractors are licensed
before allowing them to perform electrical services...."

you don't report YOUR employees status, you VERIFY your
employees status. if an employee, your co workers status,
as well as your own, won't need to be reported, as it will have
been VERIFIED by your employer before being allowed to work.

now, the first part... the reporting part.... that is what you are
supposed to do to your COMPETITORS who are getting an unfair
advantage by using uncertified people.

I believe it was said earlier, this also means it is illegal to MYOB. If you are an employee - status of you and your co-workers is only verified if your employer does what he is supposed to do.

 

[JDBrown]

...
now, the first part... the reporting part.... that is what you are
supposed to do to your COMPETITORS who are getting an unfair
advantage by using uncertified people.

I still don't understand how you are supposed to know if your competitors are employing unlicensed people to do electrical work. Can you visit a competitor's job site and demand to see the electricians' papers, SS (or KGB) style? Do you drive by their job site and have a look, and then call the reporting hotline to tell them you *think* so-and-so *might* be employing unlicensed electricians? Or maybe you should set up a sting operation, where you pay your unemployed brother-in-law to get hired by a competitor by posing as an electrician. Then you'd have 'em for sure!

My imagination is running wild with the possibilities.

I can just imagine a conversation like the following:
"Hello, I'd like to report a General Contractor who is using unlicensed people to do electrical work."
"Okay, how do you know the electricians aren't licensed?"
"Well, uh, they've under-bid me by a fair amount several times recently and, uh, there's a lot of Spanish being spoken at that job site, uh ..."
"So you think he's breaking the law because you're a racist who's bad at bidding?"

Seriously, though, how can anybody be expected to know if their competitors' employees are licensed or not?

 

[Fulthrotl]

I still don't understand how you are supposed to know if your
competitors are employing unlicensed people to do electrical work......

Seriously, though, how can anybody be expected to know if their
competitors' employees are licensed or not?

y'all are new at this "bad law" stuff, it seems...
not you personally, as you are a californicater as am i,
but for the rest of these folks....

here in californicate, we have more experience with bad
lawmaking than most all the other states put together.....

the state here, after much lobbying by the IBEW (i've been every where)
required licensing of inside wiremen.

the reasons in order of importance to the state:

they can make money off license fees.
they can pay off political favors.
i think there was another reason, but it's not worth worrying about.

you take the test, pass, pay the money, and you get a spiffy doodle
card that some people carry clipped to their hardhat or work clothes.
it's supposed to be displayed.

here's the FAQ's...
http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/ecu/ECU_FAQ.htm

working without a cert, or with a pretty cert you got from the 'net
and photoshopped..... 7 year time out.


What is the penalty when an electrician is found working without a valid certification?
According to our CCR Title 8 Regulations ? 294.0 - any person who displays a certificate,
or otherwise claims to be certified, who is not certified shall be prohibited from taking the
test for certification for a period of seven (7) years.

here's where you go to complain:
http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/ecu/ECP_complaint.htm

here's the form you fill out to complain:
http://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/ecu/ElectricianComplaintForm.pdf

send it to LUISA MARTINEZ
and she will get right on it.......

you betcha.....

and if you happen to be working on any
houses in calif. that were built before lead
paint was banned, and don't have the
state mandated EPA RRP lead certification,
you are much more likely to get hit with a fine
for that, 'cause the fines are much healthier,
and therefore more profitable for the state.....
thousands of dollars per citation.

fact is, and this is the truth, there are two task
forces in orange county at this time, trolling
upper income areas on the gold coast, stinging
painting contractors who are noncompliant.
costa mesa, newport beach, and huntington beach
are prime fishing areas.

average fine is about $4k. they hit the contractor,
and if they throw their stuff in the truck and disappear,
there is always the homeowner who can be liened.

welcome to californicate. will that be cash or charge?

 

[GoldDigger]

I still don't understand how you are supposed to know if your competitors are employing unlicensed people to do electrical work. Can you visit a competitor's job site and demand to see the electricians' papers, SS (or KGB) style? Do you drive by their job site and have a look, and then call the reporting hotline to tell them you *think* so-and-so *might* be employing unlicensed electricians? Or maybe you should set up a sting operation, where you pay your unemployed brother-in-law to get hired by a competitor by posing as an electrician. Then you'd have 'em for sure!

My imagination is running wild with the possibilities.

I can just imagine a conversation like the following:
"Hello, I'd like to report a General Contractor who is using unlicensed people to do electrical work."
"Okay, how do you know the electricians aren't licensed?"
"Well, uh, they've under-bid me by a fair amount several times recently and, uh, there's a lot of Spanish being spoken at that job site, uh ..."
"So you think he's breaking the law because you're a racist who's bad at bidding?"

Seriously, though, how can anybody be expected to know if their competitors' employees are licensed or not?

You are making the same wrong assumption that I originally did based on the excerpt that the OP posted.
The full text of the law shows that this is not a "report your competition" issue at all, since the only unlicensed person a licensee is required to report is "a person working for or under his or her supervision".
End of that particular issue....

 

[kbsparky]

Since I am the OP, I have to comment again:

As an employer, I would verify that any new employee is licensed before hiring. This is easily done on the state web site.

IF I want to hire an apprentice, then I have to ensure (s)he is enrolled in an approved apprenticeship program to enable them to obtain the required license before being allowed to work.

I also understood that if I knew of unlicensed work being performed that it was my obligation to report it as well. Hence the name of this thread ....

 

[GoldDigger]

I also understood that if I knew of unlicensed work being performed that it was my obligation to report it as well. Hence the name of this thread ....

There may well be such a provision somewhere in Delaware law, but if so it is not in the code changes that you linked to.

 

[jmellc]

It should be noted that ALL employees of an electrical contractor are required to be licensed in Delaware.

So a first day green helper cannot get a job in DE? How much sense does that make? De EC's would have to hire out of state people that could pass DE's licensing req's. But does their experience have to be in DE? If so, how did they legally get that experience?

 

[kwired]

So a first day green helper cannot get a job in DE? How much sense does that make? De EC's would have to hire out of state people that could pass DE's licensing req's. But does their experience have to be in DE? If so, how did they legally get that experience?

There is probably some confusion here, though I can't speak for DE, many places that first day green helper is probably an apprentice, apprentices are generally not "licensed" but usually need to be registered in some way. So the law in DE likely means that apprentices are allowed, but they must still follow requirements that apply to the apprenticeship process. That usually means they must still have a valid registration and registration card to be able to work. There could be exceptions for the "first day green worker", but I can also see that being abused and next thing you know all temp employees or general laborers will become "first day green workers" should they be caught with no proper documentation, so it is probably simpler to require documentation before work can begin. Registering to be an apprentice in most places is probably simple, fill out the form and pay the fee and you have registered, unlike obtaining a license where you must first meet certtain qualifications, then take an exam and pass it.

Apprentice registration can probably be done almost instantly on line in some places.