100 Raceway.

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fmtjfw

Senior Member
Section/Paragraph: 100 Raceway.

Deleted Text

Raceway. An enclosed channel of metallic or nonmetallic materials designed expressly for holding wires, cables, or busbars, with additional functions as permitted in this Code.

Substantiation:

"of metallic or nonmetallic materials" is meaningless as it means everything.

inserted deleted
 

HackElectric

Senior Member
Location
NJ
"of metallic or nonmetallic materials" is meaningless as it means everything.


Hey, let's see how much time and resources can be wasted on garbage in order to build up your stats instead of allowing them to focus on important code issues. Yay.


over 100 suggestions for changes to NEC 2014 accepted

It's like going to go to a mixed martial arts forum and bragging about how many 5 year olds you have beat up.


ETA: I've beat up 16, BTW. But they were pretty tough.


 
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iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
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EE (Field - as little design as possible)
Hey, let's see how much time and resources can be wasted on garbage in order to build up your stats instead of allowing them to focus on important code issues. Yay.

quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by chris kennedy
I disagree.




quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by iwire
In my opinion your suggested change makes a lock or seal optional.



Chris, bob, others -
Stop this. fmt's point is a bragging rights issue. It is only marginally connected with improving the NEC. Rather, check one of the following boxes:

  • has a marginal chance of being accepted
  • should be REJECTED out-of-hand


That's really all that matters.

ice
Harmless flakes working together can cause an avalanche of destruction

Hack -
This is a bragging rights issue - marginal technical content. I've reminded myself several times:

1. My opinion on the usefulness of these issues is less than worthless. Hopefully fmt sees this clearly

2. I know exactly how to prevent me getting mildly annoyed. Still, if there are a few replies, it is about like trying to not look at a multiple car pileup - nearly impossible:sick:

ice

 

rbalex

Moderator
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Location
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Professional Electrical Engineer

...

1. My opinion on the usefulness of these issues is less than worthless. Hopefully fmt sees this clearly

...

ice

I'm sure fmtjfw is well aware that your opinion is less than worthless to him.:D (Mine is too)

What I don't believe he recognizes is how quickly pissed off Code Making Panels (CMPs) get with frivolous "Public Input"(PI). Having to (theoretically) go through the same procedures as with substantive PIs they will quickly develop an "standard rejection" Panel Statement and refer to it for the entire CMP technical meeting. fmtjfw then runs the risk of having a validly significant PI rejected out-of-hand.

The above is especially true for CMP1 which covers Articles 90 to 110. They are one of the greatest "Not-Invented-Here" CMPs and, unless a PI is sponsored by a major technical association or Code "heavyweight, they are loath to accept much that they didn't originate themselves. Many PIs are actually vetted in technical societies long before they hit the PI stage. CMP1 often relies on 90.4 (which they also control). So far I've only seen one PI that has even modest technical value, and it isn't critical.
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
iceworm, how many 5 year olds can you beat up? I bet more than fmtjfw.

Ewwww - touched a nerve did we. Sorry - truely

Well two things:
1. I can only remember one fight with a 5 year old. I think I lost. But that was 60 years ago. ("lost" defined as," I was the one bleeding" - which I think is why I remember)

2. Jeez - consider lightening-up. My suggestion was: fmt's posts are ludricous/silly - why spend emotional energy getting annoyed. And that's all it was - just a suggestion.

ice
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
I'm sure fmtjfw is well aware that your opinion is less than worthless to him.:D (Mine is too) ...
Good to see you recognize that:p

... What I don't believe he recognizes is how quickly pissed off Code Making Panels (CMPs) get with frivolous "Public Input"(PI). Having to (theoretically) go through the same procedures as with substantive PIs they will quickly develop an "standard rejection" Panel Statement and refer to it for the entire CMP technical meeting. fmtjfw then runs the risk of having a validly significant PI rejected out-of-hand. ....

I didn't know that. However, that was also my guess. I left out a third check box:
  • Will be percieved as uselessly clogging the code panel's inbox. And once marked with that stamp, all others ignored as well.

As for CP1 having the distinction of being the worst for, "not thought of here", I would have guessed the panel covering 250 got that award. Just goes to show another of vast array of all the things I don't know.

ice
 

HackElectric

Senior Member
Location
NJ
Ewwww - touched a nerve did we. Sorry - truely

Well two things:
1. I can only remember one fight with a 5 year old. I think I lost. But that was 60 years ago. ("lost" defined as," I was the one bleeding" - which I think is why I remember)

2. Jeez - consider lightening-up. My suggestion was: fmt's posts are ludricous/silly - why spend emotional energy getting annoyed. And that's all it was - just a suggestion.

ice
I was agreeing with your point and I even went as far as to say that you are tougher than fmtjfw (ie, you can beat up more 5 year olds).
 

rbalex

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Mission Viejo, CA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
...
As for CP1 having the distinction of being the worst for, "not thought of here", I would have guessed the panel covering 250 got that award. Just goes to show another of vast array of all the things I don't know.

ice
I didn't say they were the worst, but they definitely take a strong NIH position. As for CMP5 (Art 250), I'm 2 for 2 with them. My proposals were primarily related to protective relaying. I'm 0 for who-knows-how-many with CMP1 although one of my Proposals was effectively passed on the next cycle, when a "heavyweight" clarified the rear of enclosed equipment was "on the back".
 

Dennis Alwon

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Location
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I guess I should get crucified also because I sent a suggestion in last year and all I did was have an ('s) put on the end of a word but it got accepted. Since members here can argue almost any section of the code there is reason to try and clarify some of it. I agree that this one does not hurt to just leave alone as deleting it does not help clarify anything.
 

HackElectric

Senior Member
Location
NJ
I guess I should get crucified also because I sent a suggestion in last year and all I did was have an ('s) put on the end of a word but it got accepted. Since members here can argue almost any section of the code there is reason to try and clarify some of it. I agree that this one does not hurt to just leave alone as deleting it does not help clarify anything.
I think intention comes into play here. Your intention was good and genuine. The OP's intentions are clearly self serving and arrogant. As others have mentioned, what the OP is doing is contributing towards making things worse and degrading the system as a whole. We are all going to suffer because of it, not only electrician, but customers as well. Everyone. Even puppies.
 

infinity

Moderator
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Location
New Jersey
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Journeyman Electrician
OK, name something that is neither "metallic" nor "nonmetallic".

I agree with your logic here but if you keep splitting hairs with proposals like this you will probably lessen the chance of getting real needed changes accepted. If your goal is to be the guy with the most proposals submitted then have at it. IMO more meaningful proposals that have a better chance of being adopted into the code and are a better use of your time. Last cycle I submitted my five best proposals and four got accepted, sometimes quality is better than quantity, just me 2 cents. :)
 

iceworm

Curmudgeon still using printed IEEE Color Books
Location
North of the 65 parallel
Occupation
EE (Field - as little design as possible)
people game all kinds of things. as games go, this is relatively benign and I don't see any harm.

Exactly. And I know how to fix it if it annoys me.

But it is still hard to not poke back. (Aaarrrrgggg - can't stand it)

OK, name something that is neither "metallic" nor "nonmetallic".

(breathe - hold left earlobe - uusa,uusa)
Okay, I'm back - that was close

ice
 

fmtjfw

Senior Member
I agree with your logic here but if you keep splitting hairs with proposals like this you will probably lessen the chance of getting real needed changes accepted. If your goal is to be the guy with the most proposals submitted then have at it. IMO more meaningful proposals that have a better chance of being adopted into the code and are a better use of your time. Last cycle I submitted my five best proposals and four got accepted, sometimes quality is better than quantity, just me 2 cents. :)

NOT DIRECTED AT infinity!

1) I have a very thick skin.
2) I would appreciate meaningful feedback.
3) Telling me I'm stupid is ok, but repeating it won't help.
4) The pattern of what was accepted and not accepted for 2014 baffled me.
5) The NEC has a Style Manual, in many cases they violate it in the NEC text. Why have it if you ignore it?
6) If you find my submissions misguided or hopeless, you can always ignore them.
7) If one or more moderators indicates to me that I am abusing this forum, I'll quit posting and miss whatever meaningful criticism available from members.

I've had 30+ years of reading and writing technical specifications. I've had 10+ years of interpreting and writing zoning law.
I'm trying to make the language in the NEC more precise and parallel, as well as suggesting changes that contribute to safety. The "niggling" nature of the comments so far is mostly (I think) partially attributable to the fact that "definitions" are, by their nature "niggling". Time will tell.

Thank for you interest and meaningful comments.
 

HackElectric

Senior Member
Location
NJ
The "niggling" nature of the comments so far is mostly (I think) partially attributable to the fact that "definitions" are, by their nature "niggling".
No, that's not the reason at all. The reason for the comments is because people see right thru you. No one here believes that you are "suggesting changes that contribute to safety". It's very clear that you are just looking for stats to put in your profile.


 

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
The reason for the comments is because people see right thru you. No one here believes that you are "suggesting changes that contribute to safety". It's very clear that you are just looking for stats to put in your profile.



You don't speak for me and I doubt you speak for most of the others.
 
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