210.8(D) GFCI/Dishwasher Reason
- Thread starter Cletis
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
What I have heard is that the dishwasher makers (GE?) asked for it based on end-of-life dishwasher fires.
Will a gfci outlet or breaker prevent a fire ?
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
If the fault that causes the fire is typically a ground fault (abraded or pinched wires? vibration?) Then a GFCI will cut off the current before there is enough heat to start a fire.
Wouldn't just a properly grounded circuit trip the ocpd just fine though ? what if it's just a loose hot or neutral sitting there and arcing. will that trip the gfci ?
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
The solid EGC return path will help, but if the wires are small or the contact is not solid, you can easily start a fire before the breaker trips.
Unlike some other appliances, a dishwasher typically has no barrier between the wire area and the surrounding combustible floor and cabinetry.
A GFCI will not even notice a hot to neutral arc, unless there is also capacitive current to ground.
Unlike some other appliances, a dishwasher typically has no barrier between the wire area and the surrounding combustible floor and cabinetry.
A GFCI will not even notice a hot to neutral arc, unless there is also capacitive current to ground.
JDB3
Senior Member
- Location
- San Antonio, Texas
I still do have the 2014 NEC. Doesn't it require AFCI for kitchen now?
As to if it will help prevent fires, a plumber friend was driving by a house, when it saw a fire on the outside. After alerting owners in the house, grabbed a water hose to put it out. Was a dishwasher that had caught on fire by the house. Nope, they were not doing dishes outside, it had been disconnected & sitting outside for close to a year. Doubt that GFCI and/or AFCI would have helped prevent the fire! :happyno:
As to if it will help prevent fires, a plumber friend was driving by a house, when it saw a fire on the outside. After alerting owners in the house, grabbed a water hose to put it out. Was a dishwasher that had caught on fire by the house. Nope, they were not doing dishes outside, it had been disconnected & sitting outside for close to a year. Doubt that GFCI and/or AFCI would have helped prevent the fire! :happyno:
Are you saying that the dishwasher was just sitting out side and no one took out the battery's:happyno: Who would ever know?:blink:
Seems that the battery's should eliminated from these units..
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
Batteries?
More likely somebody stuffed trash in it and somebody later followed up with a cigarette.
Could be, but then we can't blame the electronics.:lol:
- Location
- Placerville, CA, USA
- Occupation
- Retired PV System Designer
You must have seen newer dishwashers than I have, since none of mine use batteries. Except possibly for a calendar clock, any settings can be stored in non- volatile memory that dies not require backup power.
JDB3
Senior Member
- Location
- San Antonio, Texas
All I know about the dishwasher that caught on fire is that it was outside for a good while before catching on fire.
The dishwasher might be like a house fire that occurred here. After investigation, it was determined that the fire was caused by electrical. Further detective work, the electricity was turned off to the house 2 weeks before the fire. Long time in smouldering before the fire. :jawdrop:
The dishwasher might be like a house fire that occurred here. After investigation, it was determined that the fire was caused by electrical. Further detective work, the electricity was turned off to the house 2 weeks before the fire. Long time in smouldering before the fire. :jawdrop:
scook56
Member
- Location
- Allentown, PA
Garbage Disposal
Garbage Disposal
I got UR food waste disposal right here :lol:
Garbage Disposal
I got UR food waste disposal right here :lol:
maallen
Member
- Location
- Richland, WA
With increasing electronics in kitchen appliances there exists greater chances and incidents of faults from the control boards and electronic components. Hence, GFCI protection is now required.
- Location
- Massachusetts
No, the fact there are more electronics is not what is increasing the risk.
The crappy wiring methods and designs used by manufacturers are what is increasing the risk.
This is clearly a case of the manufacturers trying to force the homeowner to pick up the slack from poorly designed equipment.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
I honestly don't know why these appliances shouldn't require better enclosures for listing requirements. Requiring GFCI protection is treating the symptom not the cause. How often do you pull out such an appliance and find a lot of dust/lint and other debris in a space that has other combustible material surrounding it? All it takes is a spark from some malfunction(need not even need to be electrical, though there may not be too many other possible sources of creating sparks) and you can ignite the dust/lint and if there is enough of it, can spread to other nearby combustibles easily. Dishwashers have been fairly open designed for years, but seems like they are getting more and more open as time goes by. I honestly don't know what good the supply connection enclosure really does on many of them - everything else is open.
mwm1752
Senior Member
- Location
- Aspen, Colo
If thats the case why not include hard wired dishwashers at a wet bar?
Spontaneous combustion, simple as that. Close the door, and it's possible for the interior to simply catch fire. Dishwashers, fridges & freezers, heck even ice chests have been known to simply start on fire if left closed long enough.
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
I had the same idea.
And a GFCI will stop that how?
Anyway, I have never heard of a dishwasher starting on fire. So I did a quick search and found a class action lawsuit against the manufacturers of some dishwashers in Canada.
http://kitchenaidfire.com/
- Location
- Illinois
- Occupation
- retired electrician
Typically the electronics are on the load side of an internal power supply. The GFCI does not provide protection on the load side of the power supply.
- Status