AFCI Breakers

[bphgravity]

So what, you are biased. Enough said.

No, you have it all wrong. My point is that I have first hand experience. Many like yourself have this myopic view of the industry yet can provide no evidence this is the case. You assume it. I have been to the ICC code development hearings where my and the manufacturer's rear-ends have been handed to us on a platter. I have been in the code review board hearings in a half a dozen states where there are three anti-manufacturer representatives for every one supporter. And I have been to the CMP meetings where the NEMA and manufacturer submitted proposals are the most scrutinized and debated by far.

I am a certified electrical instructor, a licensed electrical contractor, and a licensed electrical inspector / plans examiner. I serve as an officer and educator for contractor associations and inspector associations. I AM LOYAL TO ALL SECTORS OF THE ELECTRICAL INDUSTRY. If I knew for even ONE second that there was some sort-of "AFCI conspiracy" or back-room deals going down to get electrical products into the codes by the manufacturers, I would quit this job immediately. It is simply not the case.

Think about this for a second. There are only four manufacturers of AFCI breakers for the US market. You know who they are and they are monsters of the industry. Do you really think the sale of AFCI's even make a line item on these company's revenue sheet? Take GE for an example, the entire low-voltage distribution section represents a tiny fraction of the company. Every NEMA Codes and Standards meeting I have attended, I hear the same mantra over and over and over from the manufacturers; "What best serves our customers".

The manufacturers want the products they produce to be as cheap as possible, as safe as possible, and as functional as possible. And nobody that has participated on this thread can possibly know this batter than me.

 

[bphgravity]

:thumbsup:

It absolutely blows my mind that anyone could even entertain the idea that manufacturers and their organizations like NEMA have a benevolent purpose when it comes to making rules on NEC panels.

NEMA and the manufacturers work on the CMPs have prevented proprietary equipment and systems from being added to the code. They have corrected language in the code that has been misinterpreted by over-zealous AHJ's. They have had sections revised to provide clarity and accuracy. They have added permissions to the code to allow options and choice. They have provided solutions to industry complaints and problems with innovation and technology. They have ensured industry standardization of just about every product permitted or required by the code. They have added provisions to the code that are saving more lives and property year after year.

There are no successful companies that only have an eye on the bottom line. If the manufacturers don't serve their customers and the industry, they die.

And don't forget that it is the NRTLs and manufacturers that are leading the fight against counterfeit electrical products. They are leading the fight against conflict materials and rare earth elements and minerals used in electrical products. They are finding the solutions for our energy crisis and crumbing electrical infrastructure.

But I understand, all of you work for not-for-profits and don't accept a salary. None of you develop strategies to expand your markets and expand your current market share. Your all a bunch of penny-less volunteers shedding the blood, sweat and tears of the industry. Yeah right!

 

[ActionDave]

Every NEMA Codes and Standards meeting I have attended, I hear the same mantra over and over and over from the manufacturers; "What best serves our customers".

The manufacturers want the products they produce to be as cheap as possible, as safe as possible, and as functional as possible. And nobody that has participated on this thread can possibly know this batter than me.

Yet just a month ago I go out to a customers house to investigate why their vacuum cleaner is tripping an AFCI. I swap breaker spaces and it still trips. I put in a new breaker and it does not trip. These things are garbage and everybody outside of the meeting rooms knows it, still the NEC doubles down on AFCI's instead of backing off. Add to that the questions about if their ability to do anything to stop electrical fires at all, and the outright lies of what they were capable of in the first place........

I'm sure the CMP members are fine gentlemen that love their families but something is up. Can't you see how the entire credibility of the code is weakened by the adoption and continued expansion of the use of AFCI's by the NEC?

 

[ActionDave]

NEMA and the manufacturers work on the CMPs have prevented proprietary equipment and systems from being added to the code. They have corrected language in the code that has been misinterpreted by over-zealous AHJ's. They have had sections revised to provide clarity and accuracy. They have added permissions to the code to allow options and choice. They have provided solutions to industry complaints and problems with innovation and technology. They have ensured industry standardization of just about every product permitted or required by the code. They have added provisions to the code that are saving more lives and property year after year.

There are no successful companies that only have an eye on the bottom line. If the manufacturers don't serve their customers and the industry, they die.

And don't forget that it is the NRTLs and manufacturers that are leading the fight against counterfeit electrical products. They are leading the fight against conflict materials and rare earth elements and minerals used in electrical products. They are finding the solutions for our energy crisis and crumbing electrical infrastructure.

But I understand, all of you work for not-for-profits and don't accept a salary. None of you develop strategies to expand your markets and expand your current market share. Your all a bunch of penny-less volunteers shedding the blood, sweat and tears of the industry. Yeah right!

They also brought us rooftop temperature derating rules that require us to use larger conductors despite any evidence of failure, fire, or injury to person or property.

 

[ActionDave]

But I understand, all of you work for not-for-profits and don't accept a salary. None of you develop strategies to expand your markets and expand your current market share. Your all a bunch of penny-less volunteers shedding the blood, sweat and tears of the industry. Yeah right!

We don't have the advantage of forcing customers by the rule of law to buy our products.

 

[peter d]

They also brought us rooftop temperature derating rules that require us to use larger conductors despite any evidence of failure, fire, or injury to person or property.

Or the prohibition of NM cable above dropped ceilings in other than dwelling units, when NM had a long and safe track record of use in that application.

 

[peter d]

NEMA and the manufacturers work on the CMPs have prevented proprietary equipment and systems from being added to the code. They have corrected language in the code that has been misinterpreted by over-zealous AHJ's. They have had sections revised to provide clarity and accuracy. They have added permissions to the code to allow options and choice. They have provided solutions to industry complaints and problems with innovation and technology. They have ensured industry standardization of just about every product permitted or required by the code. They have added provisions to the code that are saving more lives and property year after year.

There are no successful companies that only have an eye on the bottom line. If the manufacturers don't serve their customers and the industry, they die.

And don't forget that it is the NRTLs and manufacturers that are leading the fight against counterfeit electrical products. They are leading the fight against conflict materials and rare earth elements and minerals used in electrical products. They are finding the solutions for our energy crisis and crumbing electrical infrastructure.

Well golly gee, those manufacturers sure are benevolent then. :happyno: They do all those things because they make money from doing them. That's why they exist, to make money. They influence the CMP to make rules in their favor because it will benefit them financially. If I have to say it 1,000 more times, I will.

 

[peter d]

Can't you see how the entire credibility of the code is weakened by the adoption and continued expansion of the use of AFCI's by the NEC?

Exactly. :thumbsup:

 

[Fulthrotl]

They also brought us rooftop temperature derating rules that require us to use larger conductors despite any evidence of failure, fire, or injury to person or property.

now that you mention it..... :rant:

 

[bphgravity]

You know what, your are all correct. The manufacturers are doing everything they can to destroy the very industry that allows them to exist. They are working covertly to add unnecessary requirements to the code just so that code loses its credibility and the trust of the industry. Really? You guys are lunatics.

This is not a communistic country. Companies are permitted to make a profit while offering products and services that benefit the society. That profit reduces the cost of products and services, allows for innovation and technology, and allows for 400,000 jobs at over 7,000 facilities in the US alone.

The CMPs are made up men and women that work for manufacturers in the codes and standards or engineering divisions of the company. They are not sales people, they are not marketers, they do not sit on the stockholder boards making financial decisions for the company. They are individuals that believe in the work they do and they love the industry. They are genuinely concerned abut the wellbeing of their customers and society.

One last thing. The US Fire Administration has reported residential building electrical malfunction fires for the five-year period of 2007 to 2011 show a 4 percent decrease in fires, a 16 percent decrease in deaths, and a 13 percent decrease in dollar loss. There is no possible way that AFCIs are playing a role in this statistic.

 

[John120/240]

The problem with AFCI's is that when troubleshooting a circuit You are chasing GHOSTS. The circuit trips randomly. Separate everything on the circuit, assure no shared neutrals on MWBC, no neutral to ground connections.Then put it all back together & the AFCI may hold for years or it might not. One problem is that the electrician looks like a fool when he can't explain why the circuit now works.

In the beginning was their any coordination between breaker manufacturers & appliance manufacturer as to how my appliance & your breaker coexist ?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

We have had very little issues with afci breakers. Not sure why but we have only had a handful of issues and most of them were with either Cutler Hammer or Seimens. We have not had an issue with GE in a few years now. I think they are getting better, at least I hope so...

 

[Tony S]

This is not a communistic country. Companies are permitted to make a profit while offering products and services that benefit the society. That profit reduces the cost of products and services, allows for innovation and technology, and allows for 400,000 jobs at over 7,000 facilities in the US alone.

It is verging on communism when people are told they must buy xxxx even though the technology is known to be unreliable.

xxxx (fill in the letters yourself)

 

[don_resqcapt19]

They also brought us rooftop temperature derating rules that require us to use larger conductors despite any evidence of failure, fire, or injury to person or property.

Which I believe will go away in 2017 unless the raceway is in direct contact with the roof.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

We have had very little issues with afci breakers. Not sure why but we have only had a handful of issues and most of them were with either Cutler Hammer or Seimens. We have not had an issue with GE in a few years now. I think they are getting better, at least I hope so...

Even if the false trips go away, there is no evidence that self sustaining arcing faults even exist at dwelling unit voltages. The most common electrical issue that can cause a fire is a poor connection...a glowing connection...there is no device on the market that can detect and clear that type of fault.

As far as no issues with GE, it is my opinion that one of the reasons they removed the GPF was to prevent wiring error trips ...they were the first to remove the GFP from the AFCI, a function that even one of the original designers of the AFCI says is needed for the AFCI to have any real value.

 

[Tony S]

I’ll hold my hands up.

My interest in this is I can see some fool in the IET proposing AFCI’s in the UK.

The saving grace for us is it could not be implemented without a recognised “in situe” testing procedure.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...
One last thing. The US Fire Administration has reported residential building electrical malfunction fires for the five-year period of 2007 to 2011 show a 4 percent decrease in fires, a 16 percent decrease in deaths, and a 13 percent decrease in dollar loss. There is no possible way that AFCIs are playing a role in this statistic.

That is correct, there is no possible way that the AFCIs have played any part in that.

For that to be even close to true, the housing stock would have had to increase by at least 4% and everyone one of those dwelling units would have had to have AFCIs...that is not the case.

When you run the numbers based on the fire cause and origin and the fact that 85% of the dwelling unit fires that are said to be of electrical origin, you will find that the number of fires that could be prevented, assuming full compliance with the the 2014 NEC and also assuming that the AFCI is 100% effective in preventing fires of electrical origin would be less than 100 in the first full year of compliance with the 2014 NEC.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...
This is not a communistic country. Companies are permitted to make a profit while offering products and services that benefit the society.
...

Actually the product does not have to have any value to society...the manufactures can make a profit on any product that they can sell. There is no requirement that the product have a value to society. The manufacture just has to convince people to buy the product...and even better if they can make them buy the product.

 

[ActionDave]

You know what, your are all correct. The manufactwurers are doing everything they can to destroy the very industry that allows them to exist. They are working covertly to add unnecessary requirements to the code just so that code loses its credibility and the trust of the industry. Really? You guys are lunatics.

This is not a communistic country. Companies are permitted to make a profit while offering products and services that benefit the society. That profit reduces the cost of products and services, allows for innovation and technology, and allows for 400,000 jobs at over 7,000 facilities in the US alone.

The CMPs are made up men and women that work for manufacturers in the codes and standards or engineering divisions of the company. They are not sales people, they are not marketers, they do not sit on the stockholder boards making financial decisions for the company. They are individuals that believe in the work they do and they love the industry. They are genuinely concerned abut the wellbeing of their customers and society.

One last thing. The US Fire Administration has reported residential building electrical malfunction fires for the five-year period of 2007 to 2011 show a 4 percent decrease in fires, a 16 percent decrease in deaths, and a 13 percent decrease in dollar loss. There is no possible way that AFCIs are playing a role in this statistic.

You haven't addressed the the facts that AFCIs do nuisance trip when used with UL listed equipment, they were lied about at their introduction, and the questions about an arc even starting a fire in the first place, glowing connections are the big problem and AFCIs don't sense those.

 

[Sierrasparky]

NEMA and the manufacturers work on the CMPs have prevented proprietary equipment and systems from being added to the code. They have corrected language in the code that has been misinterpreted by over-zealous AHJ's. They have had sections revised to provide clarity and accuracy. They have added permissions to the code to allow options and choice. They have provided solutions to industry complaints and problems with innovation and technology. They have ensured industry standardization of just about every product permitted or required by the code. They have added provisions to the code that are saving more lives and property year after year.

There are no successful companies that only have an eye on the bottom line. If the manufacturers don't serve their customers and the industry, they die.

And don't forget that it is the NRTLs and manufacturers that are leading the fight against counterfeit electrical products. They are leading the fight against conflict materials and rare earth elements and minerals used in electrical products. They are finding the solutions for our energy crisis and crumbing electrical infrastructure.

But I understand, all of you work for not-for-profits and don't accept a salary. None of you develop strategies to expand your markets and expand your current market share. Your all a bunch of penny-less volunteers shedding the blood, sweat and tears of the industry. Yeah right!

Yes with all due respect for your many titles and hats you wear. You are living in a dream world and drinking the cool aide.

Thats what they want you to do.

There is evidence of the funny business and it was presented here on this forum several years ago. I forget the guys name but he was a engineer for Eaton. He exposed the corruption revolving around AFCI's He exposed the fact that The combination AFCI was a farce. Where Eaton had developed a breaker and then went on to have UL design a specification and test around what was developed. Not the reverse where the problem is identified then a specification , then a test procedure to identify the product works as intended. So please don't tell me anything. The only thing of value is the GFI detecting of those darn things and as that is removed wiring defects will not be detected.

AND:
To think that the manufactures bottom line is not at play is utterly ridiculous.

You have no credibility to me on this subject.

NEMA SHMEMA

Corruption is corruption.