AFCI "Myth"

[iwire]

Does the NFPA still produce Formal Interpretations?

I don't know.


That is why I am hoping Sparks will tell us if this was an FI, or CMP statements or a friend of friend knows the guy that sweeps the floor at the building next to the NFPAs and he said ....

 

[al hildenbrand]

Current oddities and questionable wordings aside,
I think the NFPA will pursue the "Intent" .

I appreciate the optimism in your thought.

As I've pondered the definition of Outlet I've learned that the term is old enough that I haven't been able to nail down it's beginning. The definition has changed very little over its life, and those changes were with respect to a list of loads that eventually became the term "Utilization Equipment".

Maybe, Ken (480), you have some insight into when it appears. And before the formal definition, how was the concept used?

The "Intent" will be in some very old documents from the first half of the 1900s, if they can be found at all.

Short of the historical intent, various new Code Proposals targeted at Outlet, Controller, Premises Wiring (System) and 404.14 to either increase or decrease the way the language interlinks will, hopefully, create a string of new Code Making Panel Statements.

 

[glene77is]

To me ...

Quo,
You wrote "To Me... the definition of outlet it is at the least a very poorly thought out definition causing confusion among the ranks."
This is a sign that you are mellowing with age.
Good sign!

To me,
(1) The receptical is a point where power
exits & returns the branch circuit.
(2) The Switch is a controller.
(3) The OCPD is a controller.
(4) Other circuits passing through a JB
are not covered YET, as regards the AFCI in the NEC.

Do I need to duck?

 

[al hildenbrand]

To me,
(1) The receptical is a point where power
exits & returns the branch circuit.
(2) The Switch is a controller.
(3) The OCPD is a controller.
(4) Other circuits passing through a JB
are not covered YET, as regards the AFCI in the NEC.

Do I need to duck?

I don't think you need to duck.

Just consider your (1) in light of the Article 100 Definition of Receptacle, Receptacle Outlet and Outlet. Power is never mentioned in any of these three definitions. And. Current, only, is in the definition of Outlet.

 

[roger]

I don't think you need to duck.

Just consider your (1) in light of the Article 100 Definition of Receptacle, Receptacle Outlet and Outlet. Power is never mentioned in any of these three definitions. And. Current, only, is in the definition of Outlet.

So with that being said I will ask again, where is the definition of "Switch Outlet" no one has told me what page it is on yet.

Roger

 

[al hildenbrand]

So with that being said I will ask again, where is the definition of "Switch Outlet" no one has told me what page it is on yet.

:grin:

Keep looking. . .

 

[iwire]

:grin:

Keep looking. . .

While your answering questions .............:grin:

Under your view is there any conductor termination that is not an outlet? (Lets exclude dead ends)

 

[roger]

:grin:

Keep looking. . .

Al, you know I know the answer, I'm asking for someone to show me where the definition is in the NEC.

Regardless, let's look at what a CMP member says about switces and this discussion.

The Ins and Outs of AFCI Protection
by Mark C. Ode


With this new change applying to all 125V, single-phase, 15 and 20A outlets within a dwelling unit bedroom, determining where AFCI protection applied was not as simple and easy to accomplish. Branch circuits for smoke detectors, small window air conditioners, ceiling paddle fans, refrigerators, heaters, and lighting units (luminaires), as well as other outlets throughout the bedroom, were now required to be AFCI protected. Questions were raised about whether luminaires in walk-in closets required AFCI protection, which were easily answered by supplying it from a bedroom circuit already AFCI protected. Since switches are devices, not outlets, a switch located in a bedroom but supplying luminaire(s) located outside the bedroom area, such as security lighting or for bathroom lighting, would not require AFCI protection.

2005 NEC.

Roger

 

[al hildenbrand]

Roger,

I respect Mark Ode's bonfides. Looking at his statement, however, is confusing.

Since switches are devices, not outlets, a switch located in a bedroom but supplying luminaire(s) located outside the bedroom area, such as security lighting or for bathroom lighting, would not require AFCI protection.

We know receptacles are devices too. . .are they, also, not outlets?

 

[roger]

Roger,

I respect Mark Ode's bonfides. Looking at his statement, however, is confusing. We know receptacles are devices too. . .

ROTFLMAO

Al, I love you. :grin:

 

[LarryFine]

We know receptacles are devices too. . .are they, also, not outlets?

No, they're located at some outlets.

 

[al hildenbrand]

No, they're located at some outlets.

So, the receptacle contact device is NOT the outlet?

 

[480sparky]

.............Maybe, Ken (480), you have some insight into when it appears. And before the formal definition, how was the concept used? ...................

Definition of an 'outlet'?

1923 is the first issue of the NEC I have that has definitions in it.

Outlet: A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply fixtures, motors and current-consuming devices generally.

In 1956, ".... fixtures, motors and current-consuming devices generally." was replaced with "...utilization equipment."

 

[roger]

So, the receptacle contact device is NOT the outlet?

See page 29 of the 2008 NEC.

Roger

 

[iwire]

fixtures, motors and current-consuming devices generally." was replaced with "...utilization equipment."

Man I thought utilization equipment was a pain to type all the tiime, I guess I should be happy it's not still fixtures, motors and current-consuming devices

 

[480sparky]

Man I thought utilization equipment was a pain to type all the tiime, I guess I should be happy it's not still fixtures, motors and current-consuming devices

Try using macros some time.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Definition of an 'outlet'?

1923 is the first issue of the NEC I have that has definitions in it.

Outlet: A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply fixtures, motors and current-consuming devices generally.

In 1956, ".... fixtures, motors and current-consuming devices generally." was replaced with "...utilization equipment."

Thanks, Ken.

The interesting thing, to me, is that the core phrase that I emphasized with red is word for word unaltered after over three quarters of a century.

 

[al hildenbrand]

See page 29 of the 2008 NEC.

:-?

I can't. My electronic NECH has no page numbers.

 

[480sparky]

Thanks, Ken.

The interesting thing, to me, is that the core phrase that I emphasized with red is word for word unaltered after over three quarters of a century.

Most likely, the shopping list of items was replaced with a broad term because someone said (insert load here) is not listed in the definition, therefore (insert load here) do not get plugged into outlets, ergo it's not an outlet.

 

[roger]

:-?

I can't. My electronic NECH has no page numbers.

Ohhhhh, so that's the reason you haven't been able to answer my question, now I think I am beginning to understand your confussion.:grin:


Roger