AFCI with panel change

[sfav8r]

We just installed a new service on a 2-unit building along with a subpanel for each unit. The inspector is telling us that since we changed the panel we need to put AFCI on the bedrooms. I asked if they had a written amendment to the code and he said they do not, but that's how we always do it. Have you guys run into this?

 

[Buck Parrish]

Yes, pass the cost on, that's all you can do. Hope you didn't use qo sq-d or CH.
Our local AHJ's have not required it.
They'll probably require it in 2011

2011 it's more clear 210.12 B Reads 'Where branch circuits are modified, replaced or extended they shall be protected by afci.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

We just installed a new service on a 2-unit building along with a subpanel for each unit. The inspector is telling us that since we changed the panel we need to put AFCI on the bedrooms. I asked if they had a written amendment to the code and he said they do not, but that's how we always do it. Have you guys run into this?

Ask him to look at the 2011 clarification that specifically allows you to not have to use afci in that situation. He may let it go.

 

[sfav8r]

Update...OK, so in the interest of moving on to other jobs, we throw in some expensive AFCI breakers. Now, being an 80 y/o house circuits are shared with bedroom, kitchen, bath etc. So we need 4 AFCI to catch all the circuits that are in the bedrooms. All but one of them trip as soon as power is applied (Can't say I'm that surprised). So a little investigation shows that circuits are improperly sharing neutrals, there are some neutral/ground contact in fixtures, and who know what else. OK, so the AFCIs are doing their job. Are we supposed to go correct every fault in the house? We'll have to if we're going to leave the AFCIs there. Customer says he doesn't care about anything inside the house, he just wants us to finish the panel as we promised. He doesn't want to pay for all the inside work. Our contract may or may not allow us to charge him for the work.

I'm curious what others think about this requirement to retroactively require AFCIs on existing circuits when a panel is changed. I don't see how the code can be interpreted to require this. We can't possibly know about existing faults on every circuit of an 80y/o house. Whether we pay or the customer pays, it seems unreasonable to me for a jurisdiction to require this.

 

[LarryFine]

I'm curious what others think about this requirement to retroactively require AFCIs on existing circuits when a panel is changed. I don't see how the code can be interpreted to require this. We can't possibly know about existing faults on every circuit of an 80y/o house. Whether we pay or the customer pays, it seems unreasonable to me for a jurisdiction to require this.

I agree, I think he was wrong, and you were wrong to attempt to comply. Everyone has a supervisor for a reason.

 

[acrwc10]

Update...OK, so in the interest of moving on to other jobs, we throw in some expensive AFCI breakers. Now, being an 80 y/o house circuits are shared with bedroom, kitchen, bath etc. So we need 4 AFCI to catch all the circuits that are in the bedrooms. All but one of them trip as soon as power is applied (Can't say I'm that surprised). So a little investigation shows that circuits are improperly sharing neutrals, there are some neutral/ground contact in fixtures, and who know what else. OK, so the AFCIs are doing their job. Are we supposed to go correct every fault in the house? We'll have to if we're going to leave the AFCIs there. Customer says he doesn't care about anything inside the house, he just wants us to finish the panel as we promised. He doesn't want to pay for all the inside work. Our contract may or may not allow us to charge him for the work.

I'm curious what others think about this requirement to retroactively require AFCIs on existing circuits when a panel is changed. I don't see how the code can be interpreted to require this. We can't possibly know about existing faults on every circuit of an 80y/o house. Whether we pay or the customer pays, it seems unreasonable to me for a jurisdiction to require this.

What city was this in, only a few city's in the bay area have amendments to the code that are "city specific".

 

[goldstar]

Update...Now, being an 80 y/o house circuits are shared with bedroom, kitchen, bath etc. So we need 4 AFCI to catch all the circuits that are in the bedrooms. All but one of them trip as soon as power is applied (Can't say I'm that surprised). So a little investigation shows that circuits are improperly sharing neutrals, there are some neutral/ground contact in fixtures, and who know what else.

I'm curious what others think about this requirement to retroactively require AFCIs on existing circuits when a panel is changed. I don't see how the code can be interpreted to require this. We can't possibly know about existing faults on every circuit of an 80y/o house. Whether we pay or the customer pays, it seems unreasonable to me for a jurisdiction to require this.

I think it's a crock and this exactly the reason why you are not required to install AFCI's for service upgrades irrespective of whether you've installed sub-panels for existing circuits or not. It's tough enough getting the prices we need to get for the job then all of a sudden some head strong inspector comes along and requires you to install $$$ worth of AFCI's and doesn't care if you have to open up every point in an effort to correct any problems. I would fight this tooth and nail.

 

[sfav8r]

They got me

They got me

I checked the local amendments and found the following:


15.04.710 - CEC Article 210.12 amended.

In Article 210.12(B) of the California Electrical Code, add the following new sentence:
"Existing bedroom circuits shall have arc-fault protection as follows:​

  (1) in an upgraded service panel of subpanel;​

  (2) where altered or extended."



Looks like we're off to find and correct 80 years of hacking. Every once and awhile I need to remind myself to check local amendments. This should keep it firmly in my brain for quite some time.

 

[acrwc10]

I checked the local amendments and found the following:


15.04.710 - CEC Article 210.12 amended.

In Article 210.12(B) of the California Electrical Code, add the following new sentence:
"Existing bedroom circuits shall have arc-fault protection as follows:​

  (1) in an upgraded service panel of subpanel;​

  (2) where altered or extended."



Looks like we're off to find and correct 80 years of hacking. Every once and awhile I need to remind myself to check local amendments. This should keep it firmly in my brain for quite some time.

What City is this in?

 

[sfav8r]

What City is this in?

It's in Oakland

 

[jxofaltrds]

I checked the local amendments and found the following:


15.04.710 - CEC Article 210.12 amended.

In Article 210.12(B) of the California Electrical Code, add the following new sentence:
"Existing bedroom circuits shall have arc-fault protection as follows:​

  (1) in an upgraded service panel of subpanel;​

  (2) where altered or extended."



Looks like we're off to find and correct 80 years of hacking. Every once and awhile I need to remind myself to check local amendments. This should keep it firmly in my brain for quite some time.

You need to know what was or is codified. Does you state know what ex post facto Law is?

That said this very 'RIGHT" was taken away from us as early as 1798.

"According to Article I, Section 10 of the Constitution, "no State shall pass any ex post facto Law"". Forgive me from only being a US citizen and not having a JD but I can read.

This is only for those of you who like to read:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/journal/cj15n2-3-4.html

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

All they are doing is creating a hazard. By demanding the arc faults it stops people from changing out panels that might have bad busbars or worse an FPE. If you did not ad any circuits then i would say what you did was a repair only by replacing defective panel. If you increased amps or added anything then they might have you. Its dam sure not right and worth fighting for. If they want to play hard A-- then but arc faults in pass inspection as that was all you were permited to do. With ink dried i think you know the rest of story.

 

[curt swartz]

Per the CA Building Code:
Local jurisdictions may only amend the California Building Code to make it more stringent because of unique local climatic, geological or topographical conditions. All local amendments must be filed with the California Building Standards Commission.

I wonder what unique conditions Oakland has for this change.

From my understanding they don't currently review any changes and just put them in a file. I wish CA would start charging all local jurisdictions a substantial fee to review any proposed changes. Any jurisdiction caught enforcing a local enforcing a local code that has not been approved by the state should be fined no less that $10,000 per occurrence.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Per the CA Building Code:
Local jurisdictions may only amend the California Building Code to make it more stringent because of unique local climatic, geological or topographical conditions. All local amendments must be filed with the California Building Standards Commission.

I wonder what unique conditions Oakland has for this change.

From my understanding they don't currently review any changes and just put them in a file. I wish CA would start charging all local jurisdictions a substantial fee to review any proposed changes. Any jurisdiction caught enforcing a local enforcing a local code that has not been approved by the state should be fined no less that $10,000 per occurrence.

I like the $10,000.00 idea. In Ohio if a building department get out of line, making their own rules, the BBS (Board of Building Standards) can and HAVE revolked a building department's certification.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Any fine they get is passed off on you and your customers. Without a building department how do you build ? Just no permits needed ?

 

[jxofaltrds]

Any fine they get is passed off on you and your customers. Without a building department how do you build ? Just no permits needed ?

Any way you want. A lot of rural Ohio has no permits or inspections. You have to have a manufactured home inspected in these areas but can do a stick build with no inspections.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Any way you want. A lot of rural Ohio has no permits or inspections. You have to have a manufactured home inspected in these areas but can do a stick build with no inspections.

Now that makes no sence at all . Why inspect a factory built mobile ?
Am curious as just how well do the jobs turn out ? So EC are not licensed ? Would think its inviting a lot of unskilled work but you tell me.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Now that makes no sence at all . Why inspect a factory built mobile ?
Am curious as just how well do the jobs turn out ? So EC are not licensed ? Would think its inviting a lot of unskilled work but you tell me.

I'll list a some of facts.
1 The feds require the manufactured home inspections.
2 We have a residential building code statewide.
3 No inspections of 1,2,3 family structures unless the (a) building department is certified by the state. So no department no inspections.
4 EC license is a commercial license. No residential license is available.
5 Anyone can do residential work unless a certified building department 'registers' the contractor. They may or may not require the EC have a state license to register but no license is required to perform residential electrical work in the state.

Have I confused you yet?

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I'll list a some of facts.
1 The feds require the manufactured home inspections.
2 We have a residential building code statewide.
3 No inspections of 1,2,3 family structures unless the (a) building department is certified by the state. So no department no inspections.
4 EC license is a commercial license. No residential license is available.
5 Anyone can do residential work unless a certified building department 'registers' the contractor. They may or may not require the EC have a state license to register but no license is required to perform residential electrical work in the state.

Have I confused you yet?

So now tell us just what are the results of no license , permits or inspections ? Do most follow NEC or just wire however they care to ? Would think insurance companies would not touch a house like this.
how and what do they inspect on a mobile ? Here all they are allowed to inspect is the pole and panel outside and wiring to the trailer panel. Not great but better than no inspection. Mine was inspected for every trade and anchoring in less than 5 minutes. It was freezing cold here that day (30's). He got out of truck and at a very fast pace walked around it. We got to the pole and he asked me what i ran. Next words were where is your permit,signed off and gone.

 

[jxofaltrds]

So now tell us just what are the results of no license , permits or inspections ? Do most follow NEC or just wire however they care to ? Would think insurance companies would not touch a house like this.
how and what do they inspect on a mobile ? Here all they are allowed to inspect is the pole and panel outside and wiring to the trailer panel. Not great but better than no inspection. Mine was inspected for every trade and anchoring in less than 5 minutes. It was freezing cold here that day (30's). He got out of truck and at a very fast pace walked around it. We got to the pole and he asked me what i ran. Next words were where is your permit,signed off and gone.

Inspecting a manufactured home:
http://omhc.ohio.gov/Video/tabid/76/Default.aspx

As to stick built they are required to use the 2008 NEC. What they do is anyones guess.