AFCI (yes again)

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MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
Mike Holt had to embarrassingly retract his original statements about AFCI's.....and the Mr. Engle propaganda that is posted is just someone with sour grapes over their fallout with a company to which they were employed and pushed AFCI's for years....

Hey to each his own......I support them and promote them and believe in them so I wont try to change you because that would not be fair since you can't change me and my opinions either. Let's just agree to disagree.....and remain BEST BUDDIES....;)

FYI- Now we can debate if a Glowing Connection is really an ARC....lol....based on the 2001 UL Document Study.

"INTRODUCTION


At the present time the UL Standard for Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupters (AFCIs)
does not require AFCIs to detect a high-impedance fault condition known as a
"glowing connection". Paragraph 1.3 of UL 1699 states:


These devices are not intended to detect glowing connections.


The glowing connection has been documented by a number of technical
investigators as a potential ignition mechanism. The purpose of this investigation
was to assess the ability of a Branch/Feeder AFCI incorporating ground fault
protection to respond to a glowing connection occurring at a wiring device
termination. The ability to interrupt such a thermal event is seen as an additional
mechanism by which AFCIs may be used to reduce the risk of electrical ignition. "

So the fight should be to force GFCI to be apart of UL 1699 Standard....and not something to bash the manufacturer about as they simply design to the standard that is being used today.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
Mike Holt had to embarrassingly retract his original statements about AFCI's.....and the Mr. Engle propaganda that is posted is just someone with sour grapes over their fallout with a company to which they were employed and pushed AFCI's for years....

Hey to each his own......I support them and promote them and believe in them so I wont try to change you because that would not be fair since you can't change me and my opinions either. Let's just agree to disagree.....and remain BEST BUDDIES....;)

FYI- Now we can debate if a Glowing Connection is really an ARC....lol....based on the 2001 UL Document Study.
Since I joined this forum there have been three members who have defended AFCI's, you, templed, cowboyjwc; a teacher, a manufacture employee, and an inspector.
 

FREEBALL

Senior Member
Location
york pa usa
So the handbook that a lot of people pay 170.00 for is inaccurate. How many other items in the book are wrong. I really think if you purchase an NEC item it should be accurate. I don't agree with the explanation you have given, saying its not NEC, It has the NEC name on it, by golly its the NEC, but you are most likely correct. But it seems to me if Mike Holt uses it for excerpts then his editors should have caught it, but they did not. So it seems its all the same. Everybody makes money and that's it. Im disgusted with this. We use the NEC as a bible for installations and when theres a code issue that isn't correct, its just "oh well it wasn't caught" tell that to the AHJ or better yet the consumer that bought the handbook thinking its better to have, since that's the way its advertised. You might as well just not use it at all.
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
Since I joined this forum there have been three members who have defended AFCI's, you, templed, cowboyjwc; a teacher, a manufacture employee, and an inspector.
Oh stop.....now your just pulling numbers out of the air..lol....I don't manufacturer AFCI's...lol:sleep:
 

edlee

Senior Member
So the handbook that a lot of people pay 170.00 for is inaccurate. How many other items in the book are wrong. I really think if you purchase an NEC item it should be accurate. I don't agree with the explanation you have given, saying its not NEC, It has the NEC name on it, by golly its the NEC, but you are most likely correct. But it seems to me if Mike Holt uses it for excerpts then his editors should have caught it, but they did not. So it seems its all the same. Everybody makes money and that's it. Im disgusted with this. We use the NEC as a bible for installations and when theres a code issue that isn't correct, its just "oh well it wasn't caught" tell that to the AHJ or better yet the consumer that bought the handbook thinking its better to have, since that's the way its advertised. You might as well just not use it at all.

I personally don't use the handbook. I'd rather get it straight from the NEC. Then when I talk to an inspector or builder I know exactly what it says and it's not filtered through someone else's opinion.

If I have trouble understanding its intent then I talk to electrician friends or inspectors, or I poke around on this site.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
lol...and with one incident you threw the baby out with the bath water. You lumped all manufacturers in that proverbial "SCUM" syndrome...lol

You have to understand that you are talking on the phone with an individual who makes statements on that phone who in all honestly are not aware of all the issues involved. In terms of GE, they did have a radical design change that might have effected their product but as a whole....However, you have one incident versus tons you have properly fixed due to installer error...Now in your own admission your record is 50-1 in successful installs and 100-1 in technical phone conversation WINS.....in the end nothing is perfect but it's the best you have...if does add a level of protection they did not have before and like the GFCI's is does get better and better.....as they learn more about the technology and arc characteristics .

Not a single person can say AFCI's do not do what they intended to do. You can say in your own opinion they don't do what YOU (anyone actually) you perceived they should do...but they do what they say they do and again are not perfect. Between 2002 and 2008 I probably installed no less than 800 AFCI's (give or take a few) and have no had a single customer moan about it, complain about the cost of them. When I question those who had bad experienced with AFCI's i magically get very little details and they hardly ever say they actually "investigated" the issue and with 100% certainty contributed the issue to the AFCI....while it is not impossible, it is just not my experience to say otherwise.

Now...with that said...and I am sure Don and Iwire will bring their points of view...I am not here to debate AFCI's....just give my experience with them.
All the manufacturers are in the proverbial scum category. If I developed a product that I believed would have the impact on safety that they proposed their product had - but did not even have it available to the marketplace I certainly don't believe they would let me have it put into NEC as a required item - with a post publication date before you need to comply with it. Then on top of that there was still a lot of controversy over whether or not they do what they claim they will do. NEC is a safety code not a marketing place, if you want to develop a product that provides a new approach to safety you need to develop it then submit it, not say " we almost have it, please put it in the upcoming code, we have invested a lot in this already and don't want to wait another three years for the next code", and spend a lot of money lobbying to make sure it get in there.

"INTRODUCTION


At the present time the UL Standard for Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupters (AFCIs)
does not require AFCIs to detect a high-impedance fault condition known as a
"glowing connection". Paragraph 1.3 of UL 1699 states:


These devices are not intended to detect glowing connections.


The glowing connection has been documented by a number of technical
investigators as a potential ignition mechanism. The purpose of this investigation
was to assess the ability of a Branch/Feeder AFCI incorporating ground fault
protection to respond to a glowing connection occurring at a wiring device
termination. The ability to interrupt such a thermal event is seen as an additional
mechanism by which AFCIs may be used to reduce the risk of electrical ignition. "

So the fight should be to force GFCI to be apart of UL 1699 Standard....and not something to bash the manufacturer about as they simply design to the standard that is being used today.
And there are many with the opinion that the glowing connection is something that is worth trying to detect and shut down when it happens, but AFCI doesn't guarantee it can do that, most other features of the AFCI can be accompished with the already existing at the time GFCI technology. All those miswiring incidents that seem to be the biggest complaint would have given same troubles to a GFCI protected circuit.

Since I joined this forum there have been three members who have defended AFCI's, you, templed, cowboyjwc; a teacher, a manufacture employee, and an inspector.
I would defend the intention of AFCI's, but I don't agree that they fulfill their stated intention - so that puts me against them as well.

So the handbook that a lot of people pay 170.00 for is inaccurate. How many other items in the book are wrong. I really think if you purchase an NEC item it should be accurate. I don't agree with the explanation you have given, saying its not NEC, It has the NEC name on it, by golly its the NEC, but you are most likely correct. But it seems to me if Mike Holt uses it for excerpts then his editors should have caught it, but they did not. So it seems its all the same. Everybody makes money and that's it. Im disgusted with this. We use the NEC as a bible for installations and when theres a code issue that isn't correct, its just "oh well it wasn't caught" tell that to the AHJ or better yet the consumer that bought the handbook thinking its better to have, since that's the way its advertised. You might as well just not use it at all.
So ask them for a refund or an updated copy if the one you have is defective.
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
But did any of those customers happen to complain about having to throw away their vacuum cleaner or treadmill?
Now you are talking about "isolated" incidents...which do not generalize the entire population that get AFCI's installed. I have a treadmill(stop laughing Dennis) and it is on an AFCI and works fine....and we use our Phantom Vacuum cleaner (well my wife does) in our home and the AFCI's work fine....Again isolated incidents that gain attending, that people cling on to to prove points which are only a fractional sample of the actual installs.....

Deal with the individual incidents as they are presented...but don't bastardize the entire market with he said- she said arguments that are only dealing with fractional incidents...Just Sayin!
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
All the manufacturers are in the proverbial scum category. If I developed a product that I believed would have the impact on safety that they proposed their product had - but did not even have it available to the marketplace I certainly don't believe they would let me have it put into NEC as a required item - with a post publication date before you need to comply with it. Then on top of that there was still a lot of controversy over whether or not they do what they claim they will do. NEC is a safety code not a marketing place, if you want to develop a product that provides a new approach to safety you need to develop it then submit it, not say " we almost have it, please put it in the upcoming code, we have invested a lot in this already and don't want to wait another three years for the next code", and spend a lot of money lobbying to make sure it get in there.

And there are many with the opinion that the glowing connection is something that is worth trying to detect and shut down when it happens, but AFCI doesn't guarantee it can do that, most other features of the AFCI can be accompished with the already existing at the time GFCI technology. All those miswiring incidents that seem to be the biggest complaint would have given same troubles to a GFCI protected circuit.

I would defend the intention of AFCI's, but I don't agree that they fulfill their stated intention - so that puts me against them as well.

So ask them for a refund or an updated copy if the one you have is defective.

As for the glowing connection....it was never intended to combat that as defined in UL 1699. Now, if they want to come out with an AFCI and Glowing Connection Device (maybe it is just placing GFCI in the device) then so be it.....we can't protect everyone or everything against every possible condition..yet anyway.

The manufacturers are SCUM eh....then stop installing manufactured products, go hungry and move to a 3rd world country.....Manufacturers should be praised for supplying the demand and being innovative in product development rather than vilified for simply producing what the public demands. The same electrician who gripes about manufacturers make a living installing the very products they gripe about.....you have lumped all manufacturers in your SCUM statement yet you profit from them do you not?
 
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MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
All the manufacturers are in the proverbial scum category. If I developed a product that I believed would have the impact on safety that they proposed their product had - but did not even have it available to the marketplace I certainly don't believe they would let me have it put into NEC as a required item - with a post publication date before you need to comply with it. Then on top of that there was still a lot of controversy over whether or not they do what they claim they will do. NEC is a safety code not a marketing place, if you want to develop a product that provides a new approach to safety you need to develop it then submit it, not say " we almost have it, please put it in the upcoming code, we have invested a lot in this already and don't want to wait another three years for the next code", and spend a lot of money lobbying to make sure it get in there.

And there are many with the opinion that the glowing connection is something that is worth trying to detect and shut down when it happens, but AFCI doesn't guarantee it can do that, most other features of the AFCI can be accompished with the already existing at the time GFCI technology. All those miswiring incidents that seem to be the biggest complaint would have given same troubles to a GFCI protected circuit.

So now I am not going to be the SINGLE supporter of AFCI's and try to convince anyone otherwise. I will however address your response in the only way I know how to do.

You state that "I certainly don't believe they would let me have it put into NEC as a required item"- My response to that is, do you really think the manufacturers dominate the CMP process? Have you actually ever been to an NFPA CMP meeting to listen to the debates back and forth and the consensus that has to take place? I mean that with all due respect mind you but I have been to them and have listed to both sides of the fights that take place (I say fights but it's just good debate really). The demand for AFCI's originally came from people like Mr. Joe Engle, who now seems to be the one referred to as the ANTI- Combination AFCI guy. In reality we still believes in the merit of AFCI's but only in terms of Branch and Feeder models which have made a comeback in specific uses in the 2014 NEC. He can mark that up as a small victory I guess but never the less he supports AFCI's since he has a hand in the original patents on much of it, at least I am told anyway.

If you read UL 1699 in it's entirely you will see that the products do exactly as they are defined to do, it is the public and perception of what they WISH they could do that fuels the debate over the AFCI Technology. The fact that a Glowing Connection is not covered in the UL 1699 standard can attest to that fact. Now, as for the arcing conditions that are covered by the UL 1699, the documented evidence in the CPSC data that shows how AFCI's have detected faulty luminaires that came into the US and sold nationwide and so on should be a good testament to their ability to function as defined.

The problem comes from "when they function less than expected" on specific, isolated incidents that have sometimes become a myth no less pronounced than Bigfoot. We have no substantial proof that Bigfoot exists....but we do have proof that AFCI's do function at the least in the scope of their testing criteria.

next let me address this comment "NEC is a safety code not a marketing place, if you want to develop a product that provides a new approach to safety you need to develop it then submit it" - I believe you need to point the finger at the CPSC versus the manufacturers. All the manufacturers did was produce a product that the safety community demanded and in America is it called "enterprise". The prevention of known arcing conditions that take place in extension cords, wiring in walls and so on is a step in the effort to maintain a safer house for all who live in it....that was established back in the early 90's when the original study was done to determine how to achieve a way to detect conditions that a standard OCPD could not detect....AFCI's do this as defined under the scope of UL 1699. Now, you want it to cover "glowing connections" and Mr. Engle says that placing a GFCI component in the AFCI does this, based on his independent study....ok then add it but be ready to understand that costs are associated with it.

Take a look at the 2001 UL study on Glowing Connections and notice the test specifics which were based on improperly terminated conductors on devices in the first place among other things. The manufacturers never claimed to cover Glowing Connections and again UL 1699 does not mandate for them. Now, I am FIRMLY in the camp that believes the GFCI add merit but thats a fight that needs to be taken to UL 1699 and not placed on the shoulders of manufacturers. You can call it tight, scum or frugal on their part but when you produce millions of devices a year to a standard like UL 1699 then thats the benchmark....mike building a home using the minimum code requirements, sure you can build above code but few do.....it's simply a cost issue and cost dictates everything. Now, make UL change the UL 1699 standard and you force the manufacturers to comply is the BETTER approach versus again vilifying the manufacturer for simply meeting the standard.

lastly I will address again the CMP....While I am not on one and do plan on being on one in a few months...I have again attended NFPA meetings and do not feel in the least that manufacturers get any more of a shake in the system than IAEI Members or Home Builders....to me the field is level and you have to substantiate your point.

Again....it is not a matter of being Pro-AFCI, it is a matter of supporting the belief that they do some good, do what the scope of the product intends them to do and if they come up with an even better one later I am a willing and able customer. But safety is costly and it is every changing, embrace what we have today and look for what tomorrow may bring is my approach.

Just my thoughts on it....
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
So now I am not going to be the SINGLE supporter of AFCI's and try to convince anyone otherwise. I will however address your response in the only way I know how to do.

You state that "I certainly don't believe they would let me have it put into NEC as a required item"- My response to that is, do you really think the manufacturers dominate the CMP process? Have you actually ever been to an NFPA CMP meeting to listen to the debates back and forth and the consensus that has to take place? I mean that with all due respect mind you but I have been to them and have listed to both sides of the fights that take place (I say fights but it's just good debate really). The demand for AFCI's originally came from people like Mr. Joe Engle, who now seems to be the one referred to as the ANTI- Combination AFCI guy. In reality we still believes in the merit of AFCI's but only in terms of Branch and Feeder models which have made a comeback in specific uses in the 2014 NEC. He can mark that up as a small victory I guess but never the less he supports AFCI's since he has a hand in the original patents on much of it, at least I am told anyway.

If you read UL 1699 in it's entirely you will see that the products do exactly as they are defined to do, it is the public and perception of what they WISH they could do that fuels the debate over the AFCI Technology. The fact that a Glowing Connection is not covered in the UL 1699 standard can attest to that fact. Now, as for the arcing conditions that are covered by the UL 1699, the documented evidence in the CPSC data that shows how AFCI's have detected faulty luminaires that came into the US and sold nationwide and so on should be a good testament to their ability to function as defined.

The problem comes from "when they function less than expected" on specific, isolated incidents that have sometimes become a myth no less pronounced than Bigfoot. We have no substantial proof that Bigfoot exists....but we do have proof that AFCI's do function at the least in the scope of their testing criteria.

next let me address this comment "NEC is a safety code not a marketing place, if you want to develop a product that provides a new approach to safety you need to develop it then submit it" - I believe you need to point the finger at the CPSC versus the manufacturers. All the manufacturers did was produce a product that the safety community demanded and in America is it called "enterprise". The prevention of known arcing conditions that take place in extension cords, wiring in walls and so on is a step in the effort to maintain a safer house for all who live in it....that was established back in the early 90's when the original study was done to determine how to achieve a way to detect conditions that a standard OCPD could not detect....AFCI's do this as defined under the scope of UL 1699. Now, you want it to cover "glowing connections" and Mr. Engle says that placing a GFCI component in the AFCI does this, based on his independent study....ok then add it but be ready to understand that costs are associated with it.

Take a look at the 2001 UL study on Glowing Connections and notice the test specifics which were based on improperly terminated conductors on devices in the first place among other things. The manufacturers never claimed to cover Glowing Connections and again UL 1699 does not mandate for them. Now, I am FIRMLY in the camp that believes the GFCI add merit but thats a fight that needs to be taken to UL 1699 and not placed on the shoulders of manufacturers. You can call it tight, scum or frugal on their part but when you produce millions of devices a year to a standard like UL 1699 then thats the benchmark....mike building a home using the minimum code requirements, sure you can build above code but few do.....it's simply a cost issue and cost dictates everything. Now, make UL change the UL 1699 standard and you force the manufacturers to comply is the BETTER approach versus again vilifying the manufacturer for simply meeting the standard.

lastly I will address again the CMP....While I am not on one and do plan on being on one in a few months...I have again attended NFPA meetings and do not feel in the least that manufacturers get any more of a shake in the system than IAEI Members or Home Builders....to me the field is level and you have to substantiate your point.

Again....it is not a matter of being Pro-AFCI, it is a matter of supporting the belief that they do some good, do what the scope of the product intends them to do and if they come up with an even better one later I am a willing and able customer. But safety is costly and it is every changing, embrace what we have today and look for what tomorrow may bring is my approach.

Just my thoughts on it....

FYI- My next investment rather than new AFCI Technology is a better SPELL CHECKER.....Good Grief !.....
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
The problem that I have with AFCIs is that there is no evidence that arcing faults with enough energy to cause a fire even exist at dwelling unit voltages. It is my opinion that most dwelling unit electrical fires stem from joule heating at a high resistance connection. This is a condition that the AFCI standard does not address (and is not required to by the AFCI standard)

Even when you look at some of the things that were said to cause fires, like over driven staples and hammer blows to NM, a recent UL investigation shows that that type of damage does not typically have enough energy to cause a fire.

I have never supported the AFCI rule, but understand that they are here to stay. However since they are here to stay, the UL standard and the NEC needs to be changed to require that the AFCI include a GFP function like all of the original branch circuit and feeder type AFCIs did. It is my opinion that the GFP part of the AFCI actually does most of the work in preventing electrical fires. Some of the original design engineers have told me the same thing.

There are at least two manufacturers of "combination" type AFCIs that no longer include GFP protection. Both UL and the NEC have been very resistant to accepting a change that would require the AFCI to have GFP protection.

I wonder if the GFP has been deleted because of cost issues, or if the manufacturers deleted it because it causes detects and trips the device from common wiring errors?
A contractor does not have to be as careful in preventing these common wiring errors if the AFCI does not have GFP, so may be more likely to by the brand(s) that do not have GFP protection.
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
The problem that I have with AFCIs is that there is no evidence that arcing faults with enough energy to cause a fire even exist at dwelling unit voltages. It is my opinion that most dwelling unit electrical fires stem from joule heating at a high resistance connection. This is a condition that the AFCI standard does not address (and is not required to by the AFCI standard)

Even when you look at some of the things that were said to cause fires, like over driven staples and hammer blows to NM, a recent UL investigation shows that that type of damage does not typically have enough energy to cause a fire.

I have never supported the AFCI rule, but understand that they are here to stay. However since they are here to stay, the UL standard and the NEC needs to be changed to require that the AFCI include a GFP function like all of the original branch circuit and feeder type AFCIs did. It is my opinion that the GFP part of the AFCI actually does most of the work in preventing electrical fires. Some of the original design engineers have told me the same thing.

There are at least two manufacturers of "combination" type AFCIs that no longer include GFP protection. Both UL and the NEC have been very resistant to accepting a change that would require the AFCI to have GFP protection.

I wonder if the GFP has been deleted because of cost issues, or if the manufacturers deleted it because it causes detects and trips the device from common wiring errors?
A contractor does not have to be as careful in preventing these common wiring errors if the AFCI does not have GFP, so may be more likely to by the brand(s) that do not have GFP protection.

Don,

I respect your opinion ( and you know this ) but I disagree with the notion and ability of an arcing condition to have the capacity to pyrolyze material at a given point that an ongoing arc would indeed lower the potential ignition point of the material to aid in causing a potential fire. While the high resistant points (glowing connections) you speak about are indeed a concern that should be addressed, the manufacturers do not write UL 1699. However they indeed they have some say in it as with all standards, again they are the experts, but as with any revision to the standards it gets reviewed (in UL's case) through the CSDS process where others can comment.

We also have to remember that even GFP or enhanced GFCI protection for that matter is not 100% perfect. We also know based on the original studies that OCPD's are not the answer for these specific conditions either. Something had to be done and the AFCI was born, thanks for individuals like Mr. Engle and others.....at this point we are only arguing over the semantics of additional, above the general scope of UL 1699 scenarios..(i.e. Glowing Connections).

One need only visit the www.cpsc.org and look at luminaire recalls where AFCI's detected issues in the wiring long before it could be installed and harm anyone. Would an OCPD detected this issue? Not based on the original research done by the CPSC it would not. The case of the GFP tends to say...nothing in the AFCI technology is valid unless you place GPF in it and that is simply not the case, and is also not the case in Mr. Engles argument....AFCI technology and its extremely detailed characteristic detection ability was a leap forward in protecting (as much as we can) an AFTER the install condition that we can't control.

It is Not or Never will be incumbent on the manufacturer to do anything other than to meet a standard. They can choose to exceed a standard but thats only if they adhere strictly to the standards protocol and then expand upon it. Originally the GFP was added to meet the "cotton ball" test....when other companies developed a way to pass the test without GFP thats is when they started to phase it out. In fact the technology to do so may be more expensive than the actual GFP...but thats a decision they make not us or UL.

Are AFCI's perfect....heck no.....will they ever be perfect....heck no......are they the best we have today...heck YES......

FYI- here is one case of AFCI's doing their job...

http://www.cpsc.gov/en/Recalls/2012...homas-Lighting-Due-to-Fire-and-Shock-Hazards/

Name of product:
Thomas Lighting ceiling flush mount light fixtures

Units: About 83,750
Manufacturer: Thomas Lighting, of Elgin, Ill; part of Philips Consumer Luminaires Corporation, of Elgin, Ill.
Hazard: The fixture's socket wire insulation can degrade, leading to charged wires becoming exposed, causing electricity to pass to the metal canopy of the fixture. This poses a fire and electric shock hazard to consumers.
Incidents/Injuries: Thomas Lighting has received 11 reports of defective fixtures which resulted in the home's Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter (AFCI) tripping. No injuries have been reported to the firm.

Now....we can argue if the GFP found this...or the AFCI found this...(more than likely the GFP) but we will not know...we can only assume.


 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I don't have all the details, have not done much research of my own, but when there are only a small number of people pushing the devices, there about has to be some problems with them. I understand there is a lot of trip problems that likely are just the device doing what it was designed to do and there are many that may not understand exactly what it is supposed to do.

If you weed out those that just complain about problems that they just don't fully understand, there is still a significant number of people that have some valid points worth consideration on both sides of the field - I don't really know which team of those people is the larger team, which leaves the devices somewhat questionable. I agree they are a step in the direction of safety, but they may not be perfected yet, and when someone has issues they can't seem to resolve in many cases they usually end up eliminating the device - how does that improve safety?

The mentioned fixture recall could possibly have been fairly protected by GFCI technology, and very possibly could have still tripped many standard overcurrent devices if conditions were there to develop low enough resistance faults, but AFCI and/or GFCI likely do indicate something is wrong sooner.

I don't have a problem with the effort to try to make things safer, and I agree steps toward safety have probably happened. I also don't think the devices are perfected enough or if they have been the education about these devices has not been pushed enough - first to the installers/troubleshooters and second to the users. I am fully on board with GFCI technology and the fact it works. Can't hardly any persistent nuisance trip problems that I couldn't find the cause. Yet there are still many professionals that don't really know what they are for or the basics of how/why they work, and even more general public that haven't got a clue. Many realize that they are often associated with being near places that are wet or could be wet but that is about all they know. Many still associate it as being the same thing as a circuit breaker and don't know why we need that when there is a breaker back in the panel.

I do have a problem with NEC putting a date in a new edition of when the use of a required item is supposed to start. You will not convince me there was not some lobbying by those that had some R&D funds at stake and were wishing for a requirement before waiting until the next code cycle before they would see returns on their investments. Compare that to when they put a date in for the required disconnecting devices that are common in certain lighting fixtures - things are just not quite the same. Maybe there was more emphasis on safety there - and was certainly a simple device that didn't require an engineering degree to understand much of anything about it, or for even the non electrical professional to see the good in that one. It also did not have the same financial impact on either of the user or the manufacturer as the much more expensive AFCI devices. I can't recall any other dates in recent editions of NEC, and some of these are even starting to become "a long time ago"
 

MasterTheNEC

CEO and President of Electrical Code Academy, Inc.
Location
McKinney, Texas
Occupation
CEO
I don't have all the details, have not done much research of my own, but when there are only a small number of people pushing the devices, there about has to be some problems with them. I understand there is a lot of trip problems that likely are just the device doing what it was designed to do and there are many that may not understand exactly what it is supposed to do.

If you weed out those that just complain about problems that they just don't fully understand, there is still a significant number of people that have some valid points worth consideration on both sides of the field - I don't really know which team of those people is the larger team, which leaves the devices somewhat questionable. I agree they are a step in the direction of safety, but they may not be perfected yet, and when someone has issues they can't seem to resolve in many cases they usually end up eliminating the device - how does that improve safety?

The mentioned fixture recall could possibly have been fairly protected by GFCI technology, and very possibly could have still tripped many standard overcurrent devices if conditions were there to develop low enough resistance faults, but AFCI and/or GFCI likely do indicate something is wrong sooner.

I don't have a problem with the effort to try to make things safer, and I agree steps toward safety have probably happened. I also don't think the devices are perfected enough or if they have been the education about these devices has not been pushed enough - first to the installers/troubleshooters and second to the users. I am fully on board with GFCI technology and the fact it works. Can't hardly any persistent nuisance trip problems that I couldn't find the cause. Yet there are still many professionals that don't really know what they are for or the basics of how/why they work, and even more general public that haven't got a clue. Many realize that they are often associated with being near places that are wet or could be wet but that is about all they know. Many still associate it as being the same thing as a circuit breaker and don't know why we need that when there is a breaker back in the panel.

I do have a problem with NEC putting a date in a new edition of when the use of a required item is supposed to start. You will not convince me there was not some lobbying by those that had some R&D funds at stake and were wishing for a requirement before waiting until the next code cycle before they would see returns on their investments. Compare that to when they put a date in for the required disconnecting devices that are common in certain lighting fixtures - things are just not quite the same. Maybe there was more emphasis on safety there - and was certainly a simple device that didn't require an engineering degree to understand much of anything about it, or for even the non electrical professional to see the good in that one. It also did not have the same financial impact on either of the user or the manufacturer as the much more expensive AFCI devices. I can't recall any other dates in recent editions of NEC, and some of these are even starting to become "a long time ago"

I wont address all that...except for the "Small Numbers pushing them remark"...Considering the CPSC, NFPA, AFMA, NEMA, IAEI, ESFI, UL and all those individuals who are NOT on this message board, I would not call it a "Small Number". In Fact, the smaller numbers are the individuals with negative comments as my travels around the country encountered rooms with 100 people in them and only 2-3 that had comments on the negative side of AFCI's...not substantiated by the way.

I think the numbers of AGAINST AFCI's are smaller....they just happen to be more vocal and frequent message boards to express their dislike...is my view of it.
 

JDB3

Senior Member
Had a call on a house that I had just recently wired. People living there for 2 weeks. AFCI for master bedroom & closet tripped. They told the GC that they tried to reset it. Tripped. Tried to reset it, sparks from the panel.

I spoke to the GC & asked him to tell them to unplug everything in the bedroom & closet & then reset it. Said same results.

Drove an hour out there. Turned power off to panel, took cover off, no signs of arcing or anything wrong. Turned power on, turned on breaker, immediate trip! Went into the bedroom, unplugged lamp, turned breaker on, it worked!

Plugged lamp into dedicated GFCI circuit in the garage, it tripped.

BAD lamp! 3 hours spent.:happysad: But got to charge service call !!!!!!!!!:happyyes:
 

readydave8

re member
Location
Clarkesville, Georgia
Occupation
electrician
Now you are talking about "isolated" incidents...which do not generalize the entire population that get AFCI's installed. I have a treadmill(stop laughing Dennis) and it is on an AFCI and works fine....and we use our Phantom Vacuum cleaner (well my wife does) in our home and the AFCI's work fine....Again isolated incidents that gain attending, that people cling on to to prove points which are only a fractional sample of the actual installs.....

Deal with the individual incidents as they are presented...but don't bastardize the entire market with he said- she said arguments that are only dealing with fractional incidents...Just Sayin!

Well you may be right, considering that you have installed 800 AFCI breakers with no complaints.
 

PLR

Member
Afci on a service change

Afci on a service change

Does anyone know requirements about installing AFCI on bedroom circuits with a service change in N.C.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I wont address all that...except for the "Small Numbers pushing them remark"...Considering the CPSC, NFPA, AFMA, NEMA, IAEI, ESFI, UL and all those individuals who are NOT on this message board, I would not call it a "Small Number". In Fact, the smaller numbers are the individuals with negative comments as my travels around the country encountered rooms with 100 people in them and only 2-3 that had comments on the negative side of AFCI's...not substantiated by the way.

I think the numbers of AGAINST AFCI's are smaller....they just happen to be more vocal and frequent message boards to express their dislike...is my view of it.
I think what you are really finding is that only a few percent are for or against - and the rest maybe 90% + don't have an opinion they just follow the rules set for them. That is when you are in a room full of random electrical professionals. Get yourself into a crowd of individuals that focus on some common specific areas and the numbers may change for or against.

I am not against the concept of what AFCI is supposed to do. I have not yet been convinced what is on the market today does what it is supposed to do, or if it does then I have been misled into believing it is supposed to do more then it does and think we (the end users) are being taken for our money for no more then we are getting out of it.

Is there any historical data out there yet that shows less electrical related fires in homes with AFCI's? That will be about the only thing that will convince me they are worth their extra cost. Do insurance companies offer lower insurance rates if you have AFCI's installed? That would indicate they see them working as well.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Don, ...
Now....we can argue if the GFP found this...or the AFCI found this...(more than likely the GFP) but we will not know...we can only assume.
I think that is really my point...the much cheaper GFCI will detect and clear most every fault that an AFCI will (assuming a wiring system with an EGC) and will clear more faults than an AFCI that does hot have GFP. Or in other words an AFCI without GFP is almost worthless.

As far as the arcing faults, UL's report titled "Influence of Damage and Degradation on Breakdown Voltage of NM Cables" (November 2012) indicates that many of the things they have told us we need AFCIs don't have enough arcing energy to cause a fire.
 
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