ansul system

[renosteinke]

I have done a few of these systems, and with the exception of one pre-packaged unit, I have simply mounted my contactors in NEMA-1 pull cans, as shown by Larry. There has not been any questions raised; I see no code, or UL, related reasons to require the use of something with a hinged door and separate rear panel.

Not that I will fault any place for having their own local ammendments. I would just want to see the local ammendment - and not just take someone's "construction" of the rules. Ditto for whatever issues may arise as to the accessibility of the panel.

The pre-packaged unit I recently wired was designed so as turn the exhause fan on when the system trips - even if everything is turned off. I will not criticise this design, only point out that I do not see any code requirement for this operation.

 

[hillbilly1]

-any AC or heat unit moving air has to go off (we never use thermostatic controls for this, not sure if that is allowed or not)

You are so correct in doing this, as many units today continue to run the fan to remove latent heat if in the heating mode. Killing the main line off the control transformer secondary is acceptable though, if it drops out all contactors. Some types of energy management systems also go to a default setting (usually cooling) if the temp sensor is disconnected.

 

[LarryFine]

The pre-packaged unit I recently wired was designed so as turn the exhause fan on when the system trips - even if everything is turned off. I will not criticise this design, only point out that I do not see any code requirement for this operation.

I do that with my systems. There's no reason not to; the wiring is the same.

 

[wireways]

I was reading at mike holt's forum NEC Contactors in general purpose junction boxes?. and i found a member by the name of dedbrk that apparently is having the same problem with inspector has i do, He writes
We have some issues in our area with putting lighting contactors in junction boxes. We are not allowed to put an Allen Bradley 4 pole contactor (Bulletin 100L) inside a typical 6x6x4 junction box. The issue that AHJ notes is with the UL label. They say that these boxes are not listed for contactors. It is difficult for me to navigate the UL website to research what is and what is not allowed. The way I understand it is that we can install contactors this way if it is not more than one? Two or more it becomes and industrial control panel? Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Bob

Thanks guys we need help with this one
Ray G
Wireways

 

[benaround]

I was reading at mike holt's forum NEC Contactors in general purpose junction boxes?. and i found a member by the name of dedbrk that apparently is having the same problem with inspector has i do, He writes
We have some issues in our area with putting lighting contactors in junction boxes. We are not allowed to put an Allen Bradley 4 pole contactor (Bulletin 100L) inside a typical 6x6x4 junction box. The issue that AHJ notes is with the UL label. They say that these boxes are not listed for contactors. It is difficult for me to navigate the UL website to research what is and what is not allowed. The way I understand it is that we can install contactors this way if it is not more than one? Two or more it becomes and industrial control panel? Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Bob

Thanks guys we need help with this one
Ray G
Wireways

Article 409 makes it almost impossible for a 'person' to make their own Ansul system control

cabinet. 409.110 Marking is the real deal breaker, I think that this issue is taking a slow

start, as far as enforcement goes, but it is code.

 

[wireways]

Articlwe 409

 

[LarryFine]

Article 409 makes it almost impossible for a 'person' to make their own Ansul system control

cabinet. 409.110 Marking is the real deal breaker, I think that this issue is taking a slow start, as far as enforcement goes, but it is code.

So, you feel that my type of setup is in fact an industrial control panel? Part of me says thanx for the compliment, and part of me asks what is the threshold?

Is a single relay in its own enclosure such a panel? How about two relays? What about a box containing lighting contactors? Is there a definition in Art. 100?

 

[iwire]

Article 409 makes it almost impossible for a 'person' to make their own Ansul system control

cabinet. 409.110 Marking is the real deal breaker, I think that this issue is taking a slow

start, as far as enforcement goes, but it is code.

I don't anything industrial about a pizza joint. :smile:

That said I have never had to make my own hood control panel, they have all been factory produced.

 

[benaround]

So, you feel that my type of setup is in fact an industrial control panel? Part of me says thanx for the compliment, and part of me asks what is the threshold?

Is a single relay in its own enclosure such a panel? How about two relays? What about a box containing lighting contactors? Is there a definition in Art. 100?

Larry, I'm sure your work is top notch. If you go to article 409.2 the definitions are there.

And yes, two relays= ICP. Do you see it the same or no ?

 

[benaround]

I don't anything industrial about a pizza joint. :smile:

QUOTE]

Not to much,but, if it has an Ansul system and you can see the control panel for it, that

will be the most industrial part of the pizza joint.

 

[LarryFine]

Larry, I'm sure your work is top notch.

Why, thank you.

If you go to article 409.2 the definitions are there.

Okie, dokie. Lemme read it.

And yes, two relays= ICP. Do you see it the same or no ?

No, because, as I read the definition, it does not apply to a box with a blank panel because of the "and's" in the definition.

 

[benaround]

Larry, Are you using 2005 or 2008 ? Lot's of 'and's' in 05 only 2 in 08.

 

[LarryFine]

Larry, Are you using 2005 or 2008 ? Lot's of 'and's' in 05 only 2 in 08.

Look 'way over there ------------------>

 

[wireways]

Construction

Construction

Article 409 broadly defines an industrial control panel as “an assembly of two or more components such as motor controllers, overload relays, fused disconnect switches … related control devices such as pushbutton stations, selector switches … and similar components.” It applies to factory-fabricated and field-built control panels, but it would not apply if the control panel is listed by an NRTL as part of the equipment itself, such as on an elevator or standby generator.

The construction requirements reference other NEC articles where these requirements have already been developed in detail for other types of equipment. These features include enclosure classifications (Table 430.91), wiring space at terminals (Articles 312 and 430), and grounding (Article 250). This brings industrial control panels into line with the standards applied to motor control centers, panel boards, and other equipment that they emulate.

 

[wireways]

Requirements for overcurrent (overload and short circuit) protection are consistent with those applied to motor and control circuits elsewhere in the NEC. Fuses or circuit breakers, which provide overcurrent protection, do not have to be in the control panel.

 

[wireways]

Labeling, specification update

Labeling, specification update

The most beneficial aspect of Article 409, in my opinion, is the requirement that each panel be marked with the following information:
Manufacturer?s name
Enclosure type number
Supply voltage, phase, frequency, and full load current
Short-circuit rating
Suitable for use as service equipment (if applicable)
Wiring diagram or diagram index number

This is intended to ensure that the inspector can determine whether the control panel meets code requirements. It should also address the problem that I?ve discussed in previous columns of equipment control panels having inadequate short circuit ratings for the system they are supplied from. The short-circuit rating must be that given by the NRTL if it is so listed and labeled, or must established using an approved method, such as UL-508A -2001: Industrial Control Panels Outline of Investigation.

SPECIFICATION UPDATE

When specifying control panel construction complying with UL standards, you should have these requirements covered, as their standards are coordinated to ensure that UL-labeled equipment is suitable for installation under the NEC. When UL or other NRTL listing is not specified or available, you can reference the Article 409 requirements in your specification, or even better, use language such as that described above to place responsibility for compliance on the manufacturer. ES




Timothy Coyle, P.E.
tcoyle@hdrinc.com
Coyle is a senior electrical engineer with HDR (Minneapolis).