Arc Fault Breakers on all bedrooms.

[tbonse]

Sure would like to see some documentation on this as I agree with David's post that "Smoke Alarms" (the proper UL classification of the line volt detectors used in homes) are not power limited fire alarm systems.

iwire, you are correct the hardwired smoke alarms found in residential construction are not considered power limited fire alarm systems, but are instead considered Non-Power-Limited Fire Alarm (NPLFA) Circuits as covered under Article 760 part II beginning with 760.21 and ending with 760.40(4). In contrast a Power-Limited Fire Alarm (PLFA) Circuit would begin with a panel supplied by a PLFA or Class 3 transformer (as defined in 760.41(A), in addition any smoke/fire detection system powerd such that it meets any of the following conditions is considered a Power-Limited Fire Alarm Circuit: 760.41(A), 760.41(B), or 760.41(C) as referenced by 760.2 and 760.41)

The power supply for PLFA circuits (meeting one of 760.41 (A) - (C)) are further defined in 725.41 (A) (1-4) using Tables 11(A) and 11(B), or Tables 12(A) and 12(B) respectively).

In particular, the Kidde (R) alarms, of which I am installing, are UL listed as 110v class 2 transformer powered with battery backup and in NEC 2005 760.24 after Exc 3 reads as follows:
FPN: A single-phase, listed electronic power supply whose output supplies a 2-wire (single-voltage) circuit is an example of a non-power-limited power source that meets the requirements of 760.21.

As such the installation of these particular Kidde (R) smoke detectors falls under the pervue of Article 760 section II.

 

[iwire]

tbonse

IMO the smoke alarms are not NPLFA circuits.

If they where they would also have to be on dedicated circuits and that has not been the case so far.


It's not like this is the first time this issue came up and each and every time the outcome has been the same the NEC requires the smoke alarms to be on Arc Faults assuming some are in the bedrooms.

Perhaps your area has made an amendment?

On the other hand if the NFPA has changed it's position on this I would expect at least some of the inspectors here would have heard about it.

No offense meant but I would like to see something from the NFPA that speaks of this change.

Right now the word is that all dwelling unit branch circuits will need be required to have arc fault protection with the 2008 NEC.

 

[tbonse]

Iwire, I would be happy to contact my AHJ and see if they will provide me with a copy of that letter, so that I may post its contents on this thread. As well all of my conversations on this matter with my AHJ have included that AHJ insisting that the smoke detectors MUST be on a dedicated circuit. And even according to the instructions (from the specific detectors I am installing) includes the following lines, though not together, they are both under the Installation Instructions:

This smoke alarm should be installed on a U.L. listed or recognized junction box. All connections should be made by a qualified electrician and must conform to article 760 of the U.S. National Electrical Code, NFPA 72 and/or any other codes having jurisdiction in your area.

When alarms are interconnected, all interconnected units must be powred from a single circuit.

As the only section of article 760 containing the appropriate power supply configuration to match the device configuration and UL listing is section II, more accurately 760.21 - 760.30.

But I will certainly see about getting a copy of that letter to my AHJ from NFPA (NEC).

 

[iwire]

tbonse I have been hunting for info and so far all I find supports my position. That certainly does not mean your wrong but it does mean I am not changing my position yet.

Follow this link to IAEI http://www.iaei.org/subscriber/magazine/04_e/johnston.htm and scroll down to the bottom look for 760.21 and 760.41

I am going to keep hunting, if this change (calling line volt smokes a NPLFA system) has occurred that is a major change from where we have been.

 

[iwire]

Here is more info on this right from the NFPA web site dated May-June 2006

Which section
In your article ?Sound Decisions? in the March/April 2006 issue of the NFPA Journal ?, you referred to requirements in the NEC for AFCI protected circuits for bedroom smoke alarms. What are those code sections you refer to?
John Rayno
Fire Marshal
St. Augustine Fire Department

NFPA Responds:
NEC Section 210.12 requires all 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms to be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination type installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.
The term ?outlet? is defined in the NEC as ?A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment.? A smoke alarm that is located in a dwelling bedroom and is supplied by a 120-volt branch circuit falls under this outlet definition. Therefore, the branch circuit supplying the smoke alarm must comply with 210.12. Smoke detectors, which are not the same as smoke alarms, are supplied power by a fire alarm control unit and would not fall under this requirement.

Lee Richardson
NFPA 72 staff liaison

Important Notice: This correspondence is not a Formal Interpretation issued pursuant to NFPA Regulations. Any opinion expressed is the personal opinion of the author, and does not necessarily represent the official position of the NFPA or its Technical Committees. In addition, this correspondence is neither intended, nor should be relied upon, to provide professional consultation or services

You can find it here

http://www.nfpa.org/publicColumn.asp?categoryID=&itemID=28316&src=NFPAJournal

 

[roger]

Here is an article from Mark Ode explaing the smoke alarms on AFCI's.

http://www.ul.com/regulators/ode/0802.pdf

Roger

 

[M. D.]

I had asked Mr. Ode once ,why the instructions found in firex smoke detectors refer to article 760 "Fire Alarm Systems". He said it was a mistake and that it would be corrected. Our residential detectors require arc fault protection in bedrooms because they are on branch circuits and they are outlets, as has already been stated several times. There are residential fire alarm panels available for those who want to use a system that does not require afci protection.

 

[tom baker]

At the beginning of the 02 NEC implementation, this forum had a lot of questions on AFCI and so there was a dedicated topic for AFCI's. That topic is gone. I can't remember the last time there was an AFCI question.
Its now a non-issue.

 

[wireman3736]

who is not allowed to put smokes on a dedicated circuit?

in my city we are REQUIRED to put them on dedicated circuit


its like putting a dedicated recep/circuit in every room to plug in your CELL PHONE CHARGER

ridiculous

I don't understand the meaning of the above phrase about a cell phone charger? Anyways I don't know of any code referance where residental smoke alarms in one and two family dwellings are required to be on a dedicated circuit, Through our state building codes refering to NFPA 101 9.6.2.10.2 requires them to be on the building electrical system and like I said Vermont amended this section to require them to be on a non-dedicated circuit, personally I agree with this amendment but I know there will be other opinions out there but I don't see a negative to this, we have discussed nuisance tripping of arc-fault breakers and this gives the homeowner a way of knowing if there smoke alarm circuit has tripped by having other items in the house effected. any negatives I would like to here. You may have local building codes requiring you to put them on a dedicated circuit but I don't know of a national code.

 

[al hildenbrand]

At the beginning of the 02 NEC implementation, this forum had a lot of questions on AFCI and so there was a dedicated topic for AFCI's. That topic is gone. I can't remember the last time there was an AFCI question.
Its now a non-issue.

In this Forum, 210.12(B) positions have been staked out, boundaries enforced, and a reasonable civility expected. The low number of recent threads on AFCI and related matters is not an imprimatur of concensus that AFCIs are accepted, understood, and without problems.

I, for one, still don't accept that I am forced, by Code, to install a product that has so much faith required.

After all, this is power and light electricity, not belief in a divine being, or string theory.

It rankles me that, inspite of direct request, manufacturers have not described, at the circuit level, how their various models of AFCI discriminate among transients by any discription other than the broadest brush stroke. Pointing to the UL standard that the AFCI must meet (to explain the circuit behaviour) is as useful as telling me that I can't field test the AFCI by anything other than the AFCI test button.

I personally believe that the fuse is burning towards some product liability actions, especially, after publicity campaigns such as, and not limited to, the NASFM's equating AFCIs to fire detectors. The NASFM was very visible in its lobbying for the expansion of 210.12(B) during the 2005 Code creation cycle.

 

[brother]

I agree, i do NOT feel that afci's should be required yet. They need more field testing in my opinion. But i guess this is what u get when you have lobbyist that paid to get an agenda across.

As for the smoke detectors, i agree also that they should NOT be a circuit by themselves. I remember reading this board about 2 years ago, and the best thing i read for the smokes was for it to be on the same circuit as the frig outlet. Just those 2 and nothing else.

The logic with this is that when that circuit goes out, the homeowner will KNOW it right away (most people go to frig at least twice a day unless they on vacation) and will get it fixed ASAP. No one wants their frig to spoil, its too much of an inconvience to run exta cords for the refer.

 

[LarryFine]

We recently finished a 5700 sq.ft. house, with 12 detectors on a dedicated circuit. Believe me, if the circuit shuts off, the homeowners will know. 12 detectors chirping is not easy to miss.

 

[tbonse]

Bob,

I appologize for the delay on getting the letter from my AHJ concerning AFCI's and Smoke Detectors.

As it turns out, this is an SC amendment and not a change in position by the NEC. It reads as follows:

SOUTH CAROLINA MODIFICATION TO THE 2005 EDITION OF THE NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE

Number: NEC 2005 01
Article:
New/Cont: New

As authorized by Section 6-9-60(C) f the South Carolina Code of Laws, 1976 as amended, the South Carolina Building Codes Council has approved the following modification to the 2005 edition of the National Electrical Code (NEC). The approved modification under Section 6-9-60(C) is mandatory for all local jurisdictions and must be incorporated into the National Electrical Code.

Modification Number: NEC 2005 01
Article: 210.12(B) Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.

The modified section will now read:

Modification: An additional exception was added to omit arc-fault protection in bedrooms for circuits serving smoke detectors only.

The modified section will now read: (c) A circuit serving no outlets within the bedroom except the smoke detector shall not be protected by an arc-fault protector.

Reason: A smoke detector is a static load most unlikely to create a fault that would lead to arcing, except in reacting to smoke or fire. The current state of the art of arc fault detectors has not proven to be reliable. It is not prudent to entrust the operation of something as crucial to life safety as smoke detectors to circuits with arc fault protection.

Proponent: City of Rock Hill Electric Advisory Board

Effective Date: July 1, 2007

This should help out those in SC.

 

[tbonse]

Bob,

I appologize for the delay getting back to you on the results of my conversation with the local AHJ.

It turns out this was a statewide amendment not a change in position by the NFPA (NEC).

The ammendment for SC reads as follows:

SOUTH CAROLINA MODIFICATION
TO THE 2005 EDITION OF THE
NATIONAL ELECTRICAL CODE

Number Article New/Continued
NEC 2005 01 New

As authorized by Section 6-9-60(C) of the South Carolina Code of Laws, 1976 as amended, the South Carolina Building Codes Council has approved the following modification to the 2005 edition of the National Electrical Code (NEC). The approved modification under Section (6-9-60(C) is mandatory for all local jursisdictions and must be incorporated into the National Electrical Code.

Modification Number: NEC 2005 01

Article: 210.12(B) Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.


The modified section will now read:

Modification: An additional exception was added to omit arc-fault protection in bedrooms for circuits serving smoke detectors only.

The modified section will now read: (c) A circuit serving no outlets within the bedroom except the smoke detector shall not be protected by an arc-fault protector.

Reason: A smoke detector is a static load most unlikely to create a fault that would lead to arcing, except in reacting to smoke or fire. The current state of the art of arc fault detectors has not proven to be reliable. It is not prudent to entrust the operation of something as crucial to life safety as smoke detectors to circuits with arc fault protection.

Proponent: City of Rock Hill Electronic Advisory Board

Effective Date: July 1,2007.

 

[curt swartz]

We recently finished a 5700 sq.ft. house, with 12 detectors on a dedicated circuit. Believe me, if the circuit shuts off, the homeowners will know. 12 detectors chirping is not easy to miss.

Larry, I have never run across a smoke alarm that chirps on A/C power fail and can imagine UL listing any such unit. This would defeat the purpose of the back up batteries since the occupants would need to remove the batteries if there is a power failure. The only time they should chirp is when the batteries are low or missing.

 

[brother]

Larry, I have never run across a smoke alarm that chirps on A/C power fail and can imagine UL listing any such unit. This would defeat the purpose of the back up batteries since the occupants would need to remove the batteries if there is a power failure. The only time they should chirp is when the batteries are low or missing.

I have to agree, (correct me if im wrong) I believe all the NEW smoke detectors come with battery back up, and they will ONLY chirp if the battery is low or missing. So all those smokes on a dedicated circuit would NOT be a good idea In my opinion. They would only chirp once the battery got low. So the homeowner would be unaware of it for while

But if they were on the refrigerator circuit then they would know about RIGHT AWAY!! and that circuit would be back on before the day was out!!

 

[dlhoule]

As long as they are not on vacation when the battery goes down. I still like ark fault breakers though. Saved my dykes once. Who knows, maybe they can get the bugs out before 2008.

I wish we could just call Orkin and have them take care of it. It's sad that we are forced to deal with problems like some of these have caused.

 

[M. D.]

This statement can found in firex smoke detector installation instructions, this has some electricians & inspectors scratching their heads in my neck of the woods . There are many smokes being installed on non A.F.C.I. circuits because of it.
760.21 to be specific.



WARNING!: This smoke alarm should be installed
only by a qualified electrician. Smoke
alarm installation must be in accordance
with the requirements of Article
760 of the National Electrical Code
and any local codes that may apply.

 

[dnem]

Larry, I have never run across a smoke alarm that chirps on A/C power fail and can imagine UL listing any such unit. This would defeat the purpose of the back up batteries since the occupants would need to remove the batteries if there is a power failure. The only time they should chirp is when the batteries are low or missing.

I have to agree, (correct me if im wrong) I believe all the NEW smoke detectors come with battery back up, and they will ONLY chirp if the battery is low or missing. So all those smokes on a dedicated circuit would NOT be a good idea In my opinion. They would only chirp once the battery got low. So the homeowner would be unaware of it for while

But if they were on the refrigerator circuit then they would know about RIGHT AWAY!! and that circuit would be back on before the day was out!!

One contractor told me that if there is a power failure on the brand of smokes he installs, they start to chirp after 2 hours without power. I don't know if his understanding is accurate or not.

David

 

[wireman3736]

I have to ask, why do some states require ac smoke detectors with battery back up? It's because if the power goes out they will continue to work. Now I ask, why shouldn't residental smoke detectors be on arc-fault greakers? I just don't know.