Backstabs - fact or urban legend?

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Backstabs - fact or urban legend?

celtic,
The following is from the UL Guide for "Receptacles for Plugs and Attachment Plugs".

Screwless terminal connectors of the conductor push-in type (also known as "push-in-terminals") are restricted to 15 A branch circuits and are for connection with 14 AWG solid copper wire only. They are not intended for use with aluminum or copper-clad aluminum wire, 14 AWG stranded copper wire, or 12 AWG solid or stranded copper wire.

Don

 

[marinesgt0411]

Re: Backstabs - fact or urban legend?

I have 2 ,3 ,4 ,5 ,and 8 port on my truck they do work well with short wires #12 is the largest wire you can use them with you cannot use them on stranded wire and they work well in light fixtures

but like I said I have not used them long enough to find out if there is a problem with them like I in counter on a back stabbed device. been using them for about a year and have not had a call back yet

 

[goldstar]

Re: Backstabs - fact or urban legend?

You can check back through the archives on this topic as there have been numerous discussions. You'll probably also find my comments, but in case you don't want to make the trip, here's my gripe with receptacle stabs and my opinion only. When receptacles are back-stabbed in a "cascaded" fashion (i.e. in the first set of ports with black & white and out the second set with black and white to the next receptacle and so on), the first receptacle on the circuit is taking the heat (amperage) for the entire circuit. Lets assume that you have 8 receptacles on the circuit. When you begin loading the end of that circuit with say, an iron or a hair dryer (those of you who have daughters know what I mean) it's been my experience that over extended periods of time the spring clip or fork that holds the wire will heat up and expand and thereby loosen or release the wire from the port. If it releases the wire, you'll end up with an open circuit and, other than the inconvenience, no harm done. However, if the wire becomes loose and makes contact intermittently it will heat up and cause arcing and possibly a fire.

Now, if the wires were spliced inside the junction box, pig-tailed and then stabbed into the receptacle I wouldn't have a problem with that. At least that way any break in the circuit would be local to the respective receptacle. But then, why would anyone do that ? The reason receptacle stabs are used is for speed in wiring.

Again, this is my opinion only, but if it ever got to the point where using receptacle stabs made that much of a dollar difference on a job, I wouldn't take the job. I'm sure there are lots of guys out there that will claim they've never had a problem with receptacle stabs but maybe they're not getting called back for the service calls.

 

[marinesgt0411]

Re: Backstabs - fact or urban legend?

Screwless terminal connectors of the conductor push-in type (also known as "push-in-terminals") are restricted to 15 A branch circuits and are for connection with 14 AWG solid copper wire only. They are not intended for use with aluminum or copper-clad aluminum wire, 14 AWG stranded copper wire, or 12 AWG solid or stranded copper wire.

Don [/QB][/QUOTE]

I believe this refers to the terminals on the receptacles.

the package that these connectors come in states
# of conductors
22-12 AWG solid
24A/600v/1000v
-30 to 105 oC

 

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Re: Backstabs - fact or urban legend?

Originally posted by Minuteman:
To many times to count, I have gone on a service call (both residential & commercial) and the complaint was something like: "We checked the breakers, but all these plugs quit working" Nine times out of ten, it will be a backstabed outlet. Half the time, it's the neutral.

By the way, what's everyone's opinion of these?

Are those the new splicing kits for 500KCM!?

 

[DaveTap]

Re: Backstabs - fact or urban legend?

yeah the 500 KCM on a 20 amp circuit... is that for extreme voltage drop or what? As far as stab-ins I don't even want remember the number of times I'd pull an outlet out only to look in the box at 4 neatly stripped wires pointing straight at me, or the number of times I'd find smoked covers and outlets with the tell tale screws all the way in. Any of you ever notice the way those "flasher" bulbs in a string of christmas lights works? Its basically a strip of 2 disimilar metals... when you run electric current through... it heats up and bends away breaking contact (and arcing a little which generates even more heat) and turning off the lights... after contact is broken for a while it cools and bends back making contact to turn the lights back on and heating up again causing it to bend and the cycle continues. Sound vaguely familliar to stab-in problems? I'd swear the requirement for AFCI protection is a direct result of fires caused by using stabs... so how much do they save now?

[ February 15, 2006, 12:29 AM: Message edited by: DaveTap ]

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Re: Backstabs - fact or urban legend?

marinesgt0411,
Yes, the UL guide that I quoted is about receptacles, but it was in answer to a question by celtic about the push in connection on receptacles.
Don

 

[charlie tuna]

Re: Backstabs - fact or urban legend?

consider the homes that were wired with aluminum branch circuits and the installer used backstabs on the receptacles. one project that we were called out for service was wired by the method. half the receptacles in the kitchen did not function -- and when you removed the receptacle either the neutral or hot would be disconnected from the backstab! the combination of load and spring pressure cut thru the number ten solid aluminum conductor. the next door neighbor came over and asked if we would repair their kitchen outlets. it was throughout this housing project. and we electricians know there is less contact surface area with a backstab connection which is going to cause high heat at the connection point. then the backstab blade is going to loose it's spring tension from the high heat and the connection gets loose --more heat--less spring--more heat--less spring until there is zero connection!! load is a major factor in these failures. and i have come across failures in copper wire installations too.

 

[macmikeman]

Re: Backstabs - fact or urban legend?

Just keep on backstabbing fella's. I get so much income out of it I am getting closer and closer to that 54' Bertram with the tuna tower.

 

[Matt Harp]

Re: Backstabs - fact or urban legend?

I have used those stab locks for about a year and a half. In both residential and commercial applications, I have never had a failure. They cost about the same as wire nuts and take about half the time. Then again, like the stab locks, I have a real bias against stranded wire.
Another bonus is that you can rough a circuit, including making joints and connecting panel, and run very little risk of someone getting kissed by a live pigtail that hasn't been trimmed out yet. I do a lot of fire and water loss work where my GC has to have some power so they can run lighting and power tools. There is no justification for the cost of a temp service if one or two circuits can be temp trimmed and energized. His guys are not brain surgeons though and will likely turn on every circuit in the panel if they trip one breaker. I like those guys though; I have made a lot of money on emergency service calls after hours because they tried to save themselves my fee.

 

[George Stolz]

Re: Backstabs - fact or urban legend?

I had an epiphany on Monday on this very topic. I was at a house hot-checking, and troubleshooting a mistied dead-end threeway.

When I pulled the switched out of the box, I noticed one wago (on the neutrals) and one wirenut (on the hots). The wago was had too few ports to accomodate the pigtails for the switches, so the installer had to use a wirenut.

When I pulled the wirenutted portion out of the box, one of the wires fell out from under it. It hadn't been twisted properly (pre or post).

It was then that I realized that my disdain for the wago was unwarranted. Since you don't have to pretwist (or twist at all) to use it, then the lazy people around me are less prone to have bad connections with it. You really can't screw it up, or at least you have to try harder to screw it up. These days, people don't seem to care about anything. It's shown in their work.

I feel like I'm one of the proud few that still care.

I will stick to pretwisting and wirenuts. But I won't dog anyone for using the wagos again. (To Sarge and the others that use them, I'm not calling you lazy. I'm calling some of the bums I work with lazy. I am curious how you use them for fixtures, though. )

 

[peteo]

Re: Backstabs - fact or urban legend?

Building machine tools, I tested a bottle of them perhaps four years ago, but our connections were all soldered. They were advertising the 'only' method to connect stranded wires. Not really made for that oily environment. But others here who used them have endorsed them completely. Cost less and work better than wire nuts. I've found twenty year old wire nuts on bathroom heaters installed slightly, without any twist whatsoever, no problem. I've found wire nuts put on gorilla style with snapped (broken inside the insulation) wires leading into them, in light circuits which don't work 'every once in a while.' With the Wago you don't deal with this 'correct method' issue.

 

[mario]

Re: Backstabs - fact or urban legend?

in my experience with the 'wagos', I've found that if the device is installed only once then they 'might' be ok ... but if you have to pull them out of the wall for any reason then there is a good possibility of the wires pulling out. try rotating them a bit while pulling on them .. they pull right out ... I also have a problem with the contact area on the wire ... "a knife edge" ... I threw away a bunch ... M

 

[jim dungar]

Re: Backstabs - fact or urban legend?

Not all push-in connectors use a knive edge. Some competitors might but Wago has the patent on a "spring clip".

 

[jes25]

Re: Backstabs - fact or urban legend?

If this forum was around when wirenuts were invented I bet some posts would go like this:

"I saw these plastic things today that are supposed to screw on to the wires to make a splice. I threw them away and grabbed my solder".

 

[Minuteman]

Re: Backstabs - fact or urban legend?

Originally posted by jes25:
If this forum was around when wirenuts were invented I bet some posts would go like this:

"I saw these plastic things today that are supposed to screw on to the wires to make a splice. I threw them away and grabbed my solder".

What's your point?

 

[southernboys#2]

Re: Backstabs - fact or urban legend?

It really amazes me what can and cant be used in other parts of the country. I have never seen those things cept for can lights. Thats the only place ill use em. Simpily because there already hooked to the fixture wire. However when I was a helper I remember some brown crappy snap connectors. Cant rermmember the manufactures name. We used them exclusuvely for fixtures that clamped together. Think a cvs or walgreens. Small skinny typically 2 ft flourecent lights

 

[southernboys#2]

Re: Backstabs - fact or urban legend?

It really amazes me what can and cant be used in other parts of the country. I have never seen those things cept for can lights. Thats the only place ill use em. Simpily because there already hooked to the fixture wire. However when I was a helper I remember some brown crappy snap connectors. Cant rermmember the manufactures name. We used them exclusuvely for fixtures that clamped together. Think a cvs or walgreens. Small skinny typically 2 ft flourecent lights

 

[jwelectric]

Re: Backstabs - fact or urban legend?

Originally posted by jes25:
If this forum was around when wirenuts were invented I bet some posts would go like this:

"I saw these plastic things today that are supposed to screw on to the wires to make a splice. I threw them away and grabbed my solder".

When I started in the electrical field the old timer that I worked for would not allow the use of wire nuts. We used crimps or split bolts and tape on all joints.
We carried our first-aid kits on a chain that was riveted to our tool pouches. (Monkey Grip)

In 37 years of electrical experience which most has been in multifamily dwelling units, I have yet to find a stab-loc that has failed. Where are all these stab-loc failures being found, or is it just a figment of the imagination?

I don?t like coconut. Does this mean that all coconut is bad? Should all coconut be pulled from the market? Just because I don?t like coconut makes it inferior, yes?

 

[Minuteman]

Re: Backstabs - fact or urban legend?

Originally posted by jwelectric:
In 37 years of electrical experience which most has been in multifamily dwelling units, I have yet to find a stab-loc that has failed. Where are all these stab-loc failures being found, or is it just a figment of the imagination?

Dude!!!

After 37 years and you have never changed out a Federal Pacific Stab Loc I have changed out 3 FPE's this month!