Bad gen-set install

[goldstar]

So it's not a screw bonding jumper but a small piece of bus.

The white conductor at the left looks like the strands are folded over.

The strap is designed to be removed if necessary. I had one installation where there was a service 150 amp rated disconnect ahead of the ATS and I had to float the neutral. And yes, the white wire was a # 6 and is folded over. The generator is a 10K unit (45 amp output) serving a 150 amp panel. I folded the wire so it would fit more securely in the lug.

 

[goldstar]

is that white control wire actually a neutral or is it being used as an ungrounded conductor? just curious because its fused. Thanks

Those are the power sensing wires. According to the manual N1 and N2 are 240 vac utility sensing output and the T1 terminal is 120 vac load sensing output and all go to the generator control panel. You can check for yourself in the installation manual.

http://www.electricgeneratorsdirect.com/manuals/rtsd install-1-12.pdf

 

[infinity]

The strap is designed to be removed if necessary. I had one installation where there was a service 150 amp rated disconnect ahead of the ATS and I had to float the neutral.

That makes sense. However when set up as the service disconnect you still cannot land a GEC on the ground bus with the factory setup in the photo.

 

[Smart $]

How about this one....

Don't know how to interpret your post. Are we in agreement ?

No.

Yup, that one's pretty explicit.

I cannot tell from the photo but is the neutral bus bonded with only a screw?

From what I remember there is a strap and nut and it bonds the buss to the enclosure. ...

So it's not a screw bonding jumper but a small piece of bus.

...

Don't let the bonding strap fool you.

(4) Main Bonding Jumper as Wire or Busbar. Where the
main bonding jumper specified in 250.28 is a wire or busbar
and is installed from the grounded conductor terminal
bar or bus to the equipment grounding terminal bar or bus
in the service equipment, the grounding electrode conductor
shall be permitted to be connected to the equipment
grounding terminal, bar, or bus to which the main bonding
jumper is connected.

 

[petersonra]

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[Little Bill]

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You must have some "touchy" antivirus software!:happyyes:
The link opened fine for me, and I have some pretty good antivirus stuff, plus some browser built in stuff.

 

[Smart $]

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I get that Norton 360 warning following photobucket links from time to time. I got it when I first clicked on the link for the '006.jpg. I clicked on the "continue anyway" link on the warning page, and proceeded without a problem. No such warning on revisits. I believe the warning is mostly because of linked-in advertising elements on the photobucket website in general.

 

[KOsealed]

That makes sense. However when set up as the service disconnect you still cannot land a GEC on the ground bus with the factory setup in the photo.

This is true, but it brings a whole new dynamic into the situation.

The installation manual and all the accompanying documentation say to terminate the GEC/s on the ground bar in the lower left hand side of the ATS. Generac specifically says to do that and gives no option to terminate the GEC/s on the neutral bar.

The only option seems to be installing an appropriate sized jumper from the neutral bar to the ground bar, since terminating the GEC/s on the neutral bar would be a 110.3(B) violation.

 

[kwired]

is that white control wire actually a neutral or is it being used as an ungrounded conductor? just curious because its fused. Thanks

If it is part of a listed assembly it does not necessarily need to comply with NEC.

It may not even be a neutral.

 

[goldstar]

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I had a problem with Photobucket years ago and posted the problem here in the Forum. Many of us here use Photobucket to display photos and I once got a virus from the site. I hadn't used the service for several years but it seems to be OK now from what I can tell.

 

[goldstar]

No.
Don't let the bonding strap fool you.

I'm sorry. I'm not breaking your chops but I'm still not following you. This is what I normally do with these transfer switches with respect to the GEC. In this case I used PVC between the meter and the transfer switch. When I use a metal offset nipple I use a bonding bushing on the transfer switch side and terminate the ground wire on the ground bar :

In this transfer switch there are only 4 positions available on the neutral bar. A strap bonds the neutral bar to the enclosure. The ground bar shown above is used to terminate all misc. ground wires including the GEC. The fact that the manufacturer uses a strap to bond the cabinet to the neutral bar is apparently an approved design. What have I done wrong ?

 

[Smart $]

...What have I done wrong ?

You cannot land a GEC on the EGC terminal bar unless the Neutral and EGC terminal bars are connected using a wire or busbar MBJ: 250.24(A)(4).

 

[infinity]

As Smart stated you need to connect the EGC bus and the neutral bus together with either a wire or bus bar bonding jumper. The photo depicts the connection via the metal enclosure which would not allow you to connect the GEC's to the ground bus.

 

[goldstar]

As Smart stated you need to connect the EGC bus and the neutral bus together with either a wire or bus bar bonding jumper. The photo depicts the connection via the metal enclosure which would not allow you to connect the GEC's to the ground bus.

OK. I see your point. How am I supposed to accomplish this with the way Generac has designed the transfer switch ? And how is this different in the case of a main breaker panel where the neutral/ground bars are bonded to the back of the enclosure via a screw ?

 

[augie47]

OK. I see your point. How am I supposed to accomplish this with the way Generac has designed the transfer switch ? And how is this different in the case of a main breaker panel where the neutral/ground bars are bonded to the back of the enclosure via a screw ?

From my viewpoint, no different and, like the ATS, your GEC should be connected to the grounded (neutral) bar and not an EGC bar secured to the can.

 

[infinity]

OK. I see your point. How am I supposed to accomplish this with the way Generac has designed the transfer switch ? And how is this different in the case of a main breaker panel where the neutral/ground bars are bonded to the back of the enclosure via a screw ?

In that case you connected directly to the bar where the neutral is terminated, not really the same as the example in the photo. I would be curious to hear what Generac has to say about this problem. Obviously there needs to be more terminals on the neutral bar.

 

[goldstar]

From my viewpoint, no different and, like the ATS, your GEC should be connected to the grounded (neutral) bar and not an EGC bar secured to the can.

So, what you're saying is that I should have run say a # 4 from the 4th spot on the neutral bar to the ground bar and then connect the GEC and EGC's there. Is that correct ?

 

[ElecQuest]

OK. I see your point. How am I supposed to accomplish this with the way Generac has designed the transfer switch ?

Just run a jumper from the neutral bar to the ground bar.

There is a lot that Generac hasn't thought about, such as the neutral lugs in the 20KW generator with a 100A disconnect not being able to accept a #3.

 

[goldstar]

In that case you connected directly to the bar where the neutral is terminated, not really the same as the example in the photo. I would be curious to hear what Generac has to say about this problem. Obviously there needs to be more terminals on the neutral bar.

I would be curious as well. If what we've discussed here is correct then I would bet there are a lot of installations out there that are (technically) in violation

 

[infinity]

So, what you're saying is that I should have run say a # 4 from the 4th spot on the neutral bar to the ground bar and then connect the GEC and EGC's there. Is that correct ?

That would make it code compliant.

I'm wondering how many inspectors would ever find this problem.