Bad gen-set install

[John120/240]

Do these generator manufacturers have any experienced hands in their employ ? Electrical

Engineers, Master Electricans, Electricans ? Heck I am clueless but you guys could design there

systems, provide advice from home.

 

[goldstar]

Well, I found out yesterday that I won't be getting the job to correct the generator fiasco. Someone under-bid me by $3K. I can't wait to see this. I'll be doing the electrical work for the remodeled basement. If I get the opportunity I'll post photos of whatever happens with the generator & xfer switch.

 

[mark32]

Well, I found out yesterday that I won't be getting the job to correct the generator fiasco. Someone under-bid me by $3K. I can't wait to see this. I'll be doing the electrical work for the remodeled basement. If I get the opportunity I'll post photos of whatever happens with the generator & xfer switch.

Can't wait for those pics Thanks for sharing by the way.

 

[stevenje]

Well, I found out yesterday that I won't be getting the job to correct the generator fiasco. Someone under-bid me by $3K. I can't wait to see this.

Let me guess....The person that underbid you, is the original installers brother in-laws cousins nephews sisters husbands friend who picked up a used Fluke multi-meter at the local swap meet last month. As we all know, if you own a Fluke then you must be a professional.

 

[goldstar]

Let me guess....The person that underbid you, is the original installers brother in-laws cousins nephews sisters husbands friend who picked up a used Fluke multi-meter at the local swap meet last month. As we all know, if you own a Fluke then you must be a professional.

You're probably right but I'll let you know when I find out.

 

[AllCircuitsElectrical]

Thank you for all the pictures and explainations ... i did think 6,000 was high .... FYI ( Philly Master )

 

[goldstar]

Thank you for all the pictures and explainations ... i did think 6,000 was high .... FYI ( Philly Master )

You could be correct. Had I done the job from the onset I probably wouldn't have charged that much but because I'm correcting someone elses mistake and signing off on it using my license I'm going to make it worth my while. BTW, did you happen to notice the rusted black iron gas line ? Either I or the HO would have to get a plumber to sign off on that also

 

[AllCircuitsElectrical]

Yes about 3/4 feet worth of pipe to replace ..... most of all the materials are there for the most part just saying ...

its basically a clean up .. 2 guys 500 a day One days work .....and 500 profit ..1500 labor. few hundred in material ... 2000 - 2500. total and i would be happy .. especailly if i was doing the basement wiring. ...

I am not tryng to bust ur go nads ...:happysad: just talkin out load ...

 

[goldstar]

Yes about 3/4 feet worth of pipe to replace ..... most of all the materials are there for the most part just saying ...

its basically a clean up .. 2 guys 500 a day One days work .....and 500 profit ..1500 labor. few hundred in material ... 2000 - 2500. total and i would be happy .. especailly if i was doing the basement wiring. ...

I am not tryng to bust ur go nads ...:happysad: just talkin out load ...

No Problem. You can talk out loud all you want. IMHO Your labor rate is a bit off, so are your material costs and your time to correct estimate. But, next time I run into a situation like this one I'll contact you, pay you to take a ride up and do the work (but you won't get a dime before it passes inspection) and I'll make a lot of $$$ sitting on my can.

 

[goldstar]

Just passing along some info here. I went to look a a gen set install in Hawthorne, NJ yesterday and stopped by the bldg dept. for some info. They issued a packet of materials including these two pieces of info from the State DCA Code Assistance Unit that I've placed up on our contractors' website:

http://www.pceca.net/images/stories/gen with ats.pdf

http://www.pceca.net/images/stories/gen load calcs.pdf

Hope this is helpful

BTW, take notice that it states that this information is advisory in nature and not binding on any party.

 

[kwired]

Just passing along some info here. I went to look a a gen set install in Hawthorne, NJ yesterday and stopped by the bldg dept. for some info. They issued a packet of materials including these two pieces of info from the State DCA Code Assistance Unit that I've placed up on our contractors' website:

http://www.pceca.net/images/stories/gen with ats.pdf

http://www.pceca.net/images/stories/gen load calcs.pdf

Hope this is helpful

BTW, take notice that it states that this information is advisory in nature and not binding on any party.

My counter to information in the first link is 230.66 will usually make the suggested practice non compliant.

If the transfer switch is suitable for use as service equipment, it likely contains an overcurrent device. If it contains an overcurrent device and is the first overcurrent device between the customer and the utility, it will be considered the service disconnecting means, and everything beyond that is non service equipment.

 

[goldstar]

I tend to agree with you. I made a point of posting this only because it was issued by a particular municipality. I wish I could contact the author of these opinions for clarification but she's out on disability. I would call down to the NJ-DCA but anyone you might reach there right now does not have one iota the amount of knowledge on Codes that she does. Thus, I rely on information I get here in the Forum and from various inspectors.

 

[augie47]

Certainly goes to prove that the term "Code Specialist" is not necessarily analogous to "Code Knowledgeable"

 

[goldstar]

Certainly goes to prove that the term "Code Specialist" is not necessarily analogous to "Code Knowledgeable"

All I can say is that if you had the benefit of sitting in on one of her CEU classes you would know that she is extremely knowledgeble on the much more than just the NEC. As I said, I wish I were able to contact her to get clarification. Until that happens I will go with the generally accepted knowledge in this Forum.

 

[kwired]

I can't say I disagree with what she said in that paper. But reality is you will have a hard time finding equipment that is suitable to comply with what she says there.

 

[Jerseydaze]

http://www.apelectric.com/6053-Generac-Guardian-Series-17kW-p/6053.htm if you check page 18 of the generac installation manual It states you need a service main unless you use a service entrance transfer switch I dont understand how this doesnt become the building main and you have to convert the existing panel to sub and sererate the grounds ect

 

[kwired]

http://www.apelectric.com/6053-Generac-Guardian-Series-17kW-p/6053.htm if you check page 18 of the generac installation manual It states you need a service main unless you use a service entrance transfer switch I dont understand how this doesnt become the building main and you have to convert the existing panel to sub and sererate the grounds ect

Absolutely correct. If it is the first overcurrent device in the service, like it or not, it becomes the service disconnecting means. It must be "suitable for use as service equipment" otherwise it is not even allowed to connect to the service conductors, and once it is supplied by service conductors, everything downstream is no longer service equipment.

 

[AllCircuitsElectrical]

2011 code ..

230.82 Equipment Connected to the Supply Side of Service Disconnect
•Only the following equipment is allowed:
•(5) Taps used only to supply…….circuits for standby power systems…
–If provided with service equipment and installed in accordance with requirements for service entrance conductors.
•Standby power systems are allowed to be connected ahead of the normal service disconnecting means only if it is provided with a separate disconnecting means and overcurrent protection.


TS Connected Ahead of Main
•Must be listed and marked as “suitable for use as service equipment” (230.66)
•Must match ampacity and voltage of service (230.90)
•Must be adequate for available fault current (110.9)
•Service ends at first disconnect on building
–Grounding of grounded conductor must occur on the line side of or in same enclosure as disconnect (250.24(A)(1), 230.71(A))


230.66 Marking
•Service equipment shall be marked to identify it as being suitable for use as service equipment. All service equipment shall be listed.


225.36 Suitable for Service Disconnect
•The disconnecting means specified in 225.31 shall be suitable for use as service equipment.

225.31 Disconnecting Means
•Means shall be provided to disconnect all ungrounded conductors that supply or pass through the building or structure

 

[goldstar]

2011 code ..

230.82 Equipment Connected to the Supply Side of Service Disconnect...........................etc.

I know you went through a lot of trouble to post all that information and I don't believe anyone is disagreeing with you. In fact, all this has been discussed and ironed out in many other threads here in the Forum. The reason that I posted that information was because that was what was in the packet of information I was handed in the township of Hawthorne, NJ when I made an inquiry regarding generators. As far as I'm concerned I'm in agreement with making that first service rated disconnect the place where all grounds are terminated. However, if by chance the NJ-DCA convinces inspectors that installing a transfer switch with no service disconnect between the meter and the main breaker panel is acceptable I will revert to that method. If I don't I will more than likely be out-bid on gen set jobs.

 

[AllCircuitsElectrical]

Maybe i am not clear on what you are saying ...

basically i am agreeing with what Kwired, the NJ lady and the 2011 code that i posted are all the same thing.

I do not understand the cost difference that would put you out of the ball park.

for the most part Generac uses 2 different Panels for residential installs... the ones that would not go in the service wire ie the RTSEZ type transfer switch which would not come under what she wrote .. http://www.generac.com/Residential/Transfer_Switches/Essential_Circuit/EZ_Switch/


and then the automatic Nexus type RTSD200A3 ...( service rated ) which would make the main panel a sub panel ... so the "extra would be to add a ground bar" and seperate the neutrals and grounds, and then making the TS where the grounds land ( water pipe and Ground rod ), instead of in the Main Panel. .... http://www.generac.com/Residential/Transfer_Switches/Managed_Whole_House/Nexus_Smart_Switch/

the later is what comes with the gen "kits" ....5875, 6051, 6052, 6053