Briant Panels

[ceb]

Tue. night I get a call from one of my regular customers, said that when her daughter got home some recps. in kitchen were not working. Her husband get home and starts flipping breakers, he hears a "sizzling" sound in panel. He removes cover, while looking in panel the A/C unit comes on and he sees sparking. So at 9:00pm I arrive ( daughter is 9 mo. preg., still 91 deg. NEED A/C) I wiggle 50amp DP breaker for a/c unit I hear sizzling, I pull breaker. This breaker was so burned that the jaws stayed on buss bar and all of the plastic on the bottom fell apart The two SP breakers across from that one were in the same shape, the four breakers above and below were in bad shape also. Not one of these breakers ever tripped. (Go stay with mother for the night) I cut off main until I could return on Wed. to replace panel. The inspector said he had never seen one do like that and when I told him they never tripped he could not believe it and wanted to keep the 50 amp for his collection.
Has any one ran across this with Briant panels? By the way this panel was installed some where in the early 70's. If I could figure out how to post pix I would.

 

[mdshunk]

Hey, a Bryant is still a Westinghouse. This is the same failure that all 1" Westinghouse style panels suffer from. I'm talking about Bryant, Westinghouse, Murry, Crouse-Hinds, Seimens, Homeline, Thomas and Betts, and probably a few others. It's not an unusual failure mode. Seen it a thousand times. Replace the breaker in a new "slot", abandon the old location with breaker blankoff fillers, and write up a bill.

 

[inspector23]

Hey, a Bryant is still a Westinghouse. This is the same failure that all 1" Westinghouse style panels suffer from. I'm talking about Bryant, Westinghouse, Murry, Crouse-Hinds, Seimens, Homeline, Thomas and Betts, and probably a few others. It's not an unusual failure mode. Seen it a thousand times. Replace the breaker in a new "slot", abandon the old location with breaker blankoff fillers, and write up a bill.

Would not work in my jurisdiction. Now where is that extra clip for my glock????110.12(C)

 

[mdshunk]

Would not work in my jurisdiction. Now where is that extra clip for my glock?????. 110.12(C)

Hey, if you want to make people replace a panel because a couple of buss stabs burned up, that's on you. I think blanking off those slots is good enough. On the QO's, you used to be able to replace the "fingers". They stopped that a while back, and now the whole buss is one piece. That sucks.

 

[inspector23]

Hey, if you want to make people replace a panel because a couple of buss stabs burned up, that's on you. I think blanking off those slots is good enough. On the QO's, you used to be able to replace the "fingers". They stopped that a while back, and now the whole buss is one piece. That sucks.

I KNEW I needed that extra clip!! I am not making people do anything. The NEC requires it. It is not up to me. It is black and white. "Good enough" is why I have a security in my chosen profession an an Inspector!

110.12(C) Integrity of electrical equipment and connections. ( last sentence) There shall be no damaged parts that may adversely affect safe operation or mechanical strength of the equipment such as parts that are broken;bent;cut;or deteriorated by corrosion, chemical action, or overheating.

 

[mdshunk]

Yes, I read it, and I have chosen to ignore it. I'm neither proud of it or ashamed of it. I will happily remove a damaged breaker, blank off the cover plate for that slot, install a new one in a new slot, and reterminate the conductor. Call me crazy, but I call it prudent.

 

[ceb]

Hey, a Bryant is still a Westinghouse. This is the same failure that all 1" Westinghouse style panels suffer from. I'm talking about Bryant, Westinghouse, Murry, Crouse-Hinds, Seimens, Homeline, Thomas and Betts, and probably a few others. It's not an unusual failure mode. Seen it a thousand times. Replace the breaker in a new "slot", abandon the old location with breaker blankoff fillers, and write up a bill.

OK maybe a common failure however this was a 40 space panel with NO spare room. But most importantly the buss was charred with in 4 inches ether way of where the a/c breaker was. I would not do as you suggested to your home or anyone else's seeing what I saw. I like to sleep at night.

 

[inspector23]

That's all after you have pulled the permit, contacted your friendly inspector, and told him of your desire to have him there in a 30 minute window so you can quickly restore the power, mentioning that you have refreshments which will be served after completion of the project, right?:grin:

 

[mdshunk]

OK maybe a common failure however this was a 40 space panel with NO spare room. But most importantly the buss was charred with in 4 inches ether way of where the a/c breaker was.

What you're describing is more of an unusual failure, then. That would require a panel change.

Maybe I have an unusual advantage, in that I mostly only do service. Seldom does a week go by where I don't find a breaker burned up on the buss stab. I'd be lining up a heck of a lot of panel swaps if I condemned every panel that I find with a buss finger burned.

 

[mdshunk]

That's all after you have pulled the permit, contacted your friendly inspector, and told him of your desire to have him there in a 30 minute window so you can quickly restore the power, mentioning that you have refreshments which will be served after completion of the project, right?:grin:

Again, you're assuming too much. What's permittable work in your jurisdiction may not require a permit in all jurisdictions.

 

[inspector23]

Again, you're assuming too much. What's permittable work in your jurisdiction may not require a permit in all jurisdictions.

That little green smiley guy at the end was to indicate I was joking. I take my work seriously, but I do not take myself seriously. I learn something everytime I log on, and I enjoy the banter.

Service call Sparky, eh? Just curious. How do you determine when burned up buss fingers are severe enough to warrant replacement of the buss or panel?

 

[mdshunk]

Service call Sparky, eh? Just curious. How do you determine when burned up buss fingers are severe enough to warrant replacement of the buss or panel?

When the heat stress visibly extends into the buss proper, rather than just a finger or stab.

I know I'm not the only one who subscribes to this repair method. Maybe just the only one with guts enough to admit it. I've run across many panels that have had the panel fillers or the panel schedule written on, to note "bad slot".

(If I sounded angry or PO'd, I'm not. Sorry about that)

 

[dwellselectric]

I would change the panel over if it was as bad as you say it was. Blanknig off the spaces ehhh not so cool with that. But to each there own :grin:

 

[dab]

i found a nema 1 panel installed on the outside of a trailer. they tried to silicone it into waterproof but it did not work. the range 2p-40 was the only one that tripped. upon further investigation many 2 pole and a couple 1 pole breakers were so rusted/burned up that as i removed them they disintegrated upon removal. they were bryant. called the ownerwho lived out of town and suggested he replace the whole panel. he said no. i said in the very least he should have someone build a waterproof cover. he understood my concern but never fixed it.

 

[micromind]

I have to agree with Marc here, I do exactly the same thing. If just the fingers are bad, and there's open spaces, I'll install a new breaker and blank off the bad spaces. If the wire is too short, you bet I'll splice inside the panel. If the bus that carries current to other breakers is also burned (rare), I'll replace the whole panel.

Code violation? Of course; nearly every 'shortcut' is. Safety compromise? Not as I see it. I'll get flamed beyond belief for this, but here goes....The NEC exists to provide a reasonable degree of safety, so it states in the beginning. I believe all code needs to be applied with this in mind. One of the problems I see concerning our industry is the publics general perception of us electricians as a bunch of procedure oriented rule followers. 'The code says....' Certainly, all code (well, most anyway) is written to provide for the safe use of electricity, but I think alot of us tend to rigidly apply the written rule without ever thinking of the overall scheme of things.

Look at it this way...Have you ever violated any traffic law? Why is it you'll think nothing of busting a speed limit, but rip anyone to shreds who doesn't always follow code to the letter?

OK, flame on!

 

[inspector23]

Look at it this way...Have you ever violated any traffic law? Why is it you'll think nothing of busting a speed limit, but rip anyone to shreds who doesn't always follow code to the letter?

The traffic analogy is flawed, IMO, because it is temporary. I run a light, if I make it, it is over in a second or two. The electrical fix that is provided will be there (hopefully) for years, perhaps decades, to come. There is nothing temporary about electrical repairs. For that reason alone, it justifies removing and replacing the damaged parts, especially when the code so clearly addresses this exact situation.

OK, flame on!

Sorry, I never did find my extra clip for my glock and I am out of ammo, having used it all on Marc!:grin:

 

[cadpoint]

The traffic analogy is flawed, IMO, because it is temporary. I run a light, if I make it, it is over in a second or two. The electrical fix that is provided will be there (hopefully) for years, perhaps decades, to come. There is nothing temporary about electrical repairs. For that reason alone, it justifies removing and replacing the damaged parts, especially when the code so clearly addresses this exact situation.
...
:grin:

There's million of panels/ can and service out there riding the line, I think we all do the best we can do under the (a) situation.
Yeah one touchs it they own it, they better understand all aspects there service change, respectfully...

 

[busman]

especially when the code so clearly addresses this exact situation.

Code reference please? I have done what Marc is talking about. When I do this, I recommend in writing that the panel should be replaced. Some do it, some don't.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

I have to agree with Marc here, I do exactly the same thing. If just the fingers are bad, and there's open spaces, I'll install a new breaker and blank off the bad spaces. If the wire is too short, you bet I'll splice inside the panel. If the bus that carries current to other breakers is also burned (rare), I'll replace the whole panel.

Code violation? Of course; nearly every 'shortcut' is. Safety compromise? Not as I see it. I'll get flamed beyond belief for this, but here goes....The NEC exists to provide a reasonable degree of safety, so it states in the beginning. I believe all code needs to be applied with this in mind. One of the problems I see concerning our industry is the publics general perception of us electricians as a bunch of procedure oriented rule followers. 'The code says....' Certainly, all code (well, most anyway) is written to provide for the safe use of electricity, but I think alot of us tend to rigidly apply the written rule without ever thinking of the overall scheme of things.

Look at it this way...Have you ever violated any traffic law? Why is it you'll think nothing of busting a speed limit, but rip anyone to shreds who doesn't always follow code to the letter?

OK, flame on!

The problem with this thinking is that it comes from the position of being a self-proclaimed expert on the subject at hand. Once you've "mastered" the art of driving we feel like we can safely make the decision to ingore rules as we seem fit. It is not until the wrong decision is made and in the blink of an eye a family of 4 is dead, that we realize the rules are there for a good reason. And of course MOST people do feel that way. That's why 1.2 million people worldwide are estimated to be killed each year on the roads (ref http://www.fiafoundation.com)

 

[ptonsparky]

I've seen SQD 3R panels do the same thing. I moved the load on one to a new breaker, new slot and recommended replacing the whole panel but the owners said no. I cringe each time I see it. Every year for 20+ years.