Brick Tie nail in 4/0 SER

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scwirenut

scwirenut

Senior Member
Location
Sumter, South Carolina
Turned on power, Main breaker shooting fire, tracked down to this this nail at the top plate, it ended up puncturing both phases and neutral.
I told the HO to make the framers install these before I wired, I guess the brickies thought more was needed after I left.

I cut the nail and backed it out. everything booted back up ok, HO said not to replace it (based on quote from me and the patch/paint guys)

what do you guys think?

http://s138.photobucket.com/albums/q272/RPElectric/?action=view&current=03-24-09_1206.jpg
 
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ibew441dc

ibew441dc

Senior Member
scwirenut said:
I cut the nail and backed it out. everything booted back up ok, HO said not to replace it (based on quote from me and the patch/paint guys)

what do you guys think?
Click to expand...

I hope you inspected the wiring for damage,and replaced as necessary.........or your really asking for it down the road when something happens.
 
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charlie b

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
I think the integrity of the wire insulation has been compromised, and that the installation is now a fire waiting to happen. At the very least, the wires should be repaired with insulating tape, so that there is no longer a danger of leakage current from phase to neutral or from either wire to ground. I also think you should give your estimate, and a warning statement concerning the possible consequenses of a wire with damaged insulation, to the homeowner in writing.
 
electricalperson

electricalperson

Senior Member
Location
massachusetts
i would never leave that wire there. it probably has damaged conductors that need to be repaired. if the insulation is damaged i like to strip back the jacket of the cable, inspect for conductor damage if none i wrap with a few layers of rubber tape followed by a few layers of good electrical tape. after repair is done it should be meggered to check for any other shorts. thats just the cheap way to fix it. you should repair it now before people die :)
 
C

CopperTone

Senior Member
Location
MetroWest, MA
ask the homeowner and their insurance company who they are going to sue when their house burns to the ground. It definitely will be you - 100% sure on this.
I would thell them it had to be repaired and/or replaced. I would document the quote. If they don't want to pay then I would document it in writing and have the homeowner sign it that they refused repairs. I would also forward a copy of the documentation and pictures to the building dept in the city or town. Don't just walk away.

You shouldn't do it for free and you shouldn't leave it that way. You also cannot make someone agree to work and pay you.

Next time simply tell them - your only option is to replace the wire.

6 months ago a house we wired burned down - the cause was the masons built the fireplace wrong. The homeowners insurance company still did an investigation of the wiring and put us on notice of such. My insurance company said don't worry - they will try to blame anyone so they don't have to pay - but we will defend you and launch out own investigation if they try to blame you so we won't have to pay. Never heard from them again but the house is still boarded up - I guess the homeowner it still fighting with the insurance company for more money.

they will try to hang you on this if you do nothing and the house has a fire.
 
ceb58

ceb58

Senior Member
Location
Raeford, NC
zbang said:
And if the breaker was really shooting fire, it goes too. (The HO should be able to backbill, or even sue, the bricklayers.)
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If the HO is to dumb and/or cheap to not pay for replacement of the wire and breaker then you need to get it in writing that the HO refused the repair against your advice. That way when his crap burns down and the insurance comes to your door you can show them the photos and the letter. Or if there have been permits pulled on this job show it to the inspector. He can have the power removed from the home until it is corrected.
 
growler

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
scwirenut said:
I told the HO to make the framers install these before I wired, I guess the brickies thought more was needed after I left. HO said not to replace it.

what do you guys think?
Click to expand...

Sounds like the homeowner is building his own house. A homeowner building his own house is an acting general contractor and is responsible for keeping up with this sort of thing just like a GC should do.

The homeowner probably hired Jose and the boys as day laborers to brick the house and now he knows he can't back charge ( he paid in cash and no contract but a real cheap job).

The owner/contractor has no choice in the matter if he ever wants a final on the job. The cable must be either repaired or replaced and this being new construction I would never repair it ( it may be there a long time).

New cable and new breaker is the way to go. Homeowners need to learn that being a contractor is not all the fun they think it is, there are risk involved.
 
S

SEO

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
With that kind of damage I wouldn't have turned the breaker on. That should have been repaired or replaced immediately. As pointed out in other posts if a disaster happens you will be the first one explaining why you turned the power on and left in a courtroom.
 
N

nakulak

Senior Member
SEO said:
With that kind of damage I wouldn't have turned the breaker on. That should have been repaired or replaced immediately. As pointed out in other posts if a disaster happens you will be the first one explaining why you turned the power on and left in a courtroom.
Click to expand...

as others have said, you are playing with fire.
 
Pierre C Belarge

Pierre C Belarge

Senior Member
Location
Westchester County, New York
It staggers my mind that one would let a homeowner help in the decision of what has to be performed, especially based on money.

This is relatively simple.

1. Letter to the building department stating what happened and the potential dangers involved.

2. Letter to the homeowner stating the same, ask them to read it in front of you and sign a copy they read it and understand.

3. In the letter, state the methods you will perform to correct the situation.
a. Replace the SE cable
b. Replace the Circuit Breaker
c.Check the bus of the panel for any other potential damage created by the "sparks and arcs of the tremendous fault current imposed on the equipment.
d. Check the meterpan as well for the same potential damage.

[Fault current travels from the point of the fault, to the source(transformer) and back to the circuit breaker(s) - if the fault is on the line side of the overcurrent protective service disconnect, then the fault will burn until it burns clear or the primary opens up...thus potentially causing a tremendous amount of damage]


If this does not get their attention, at the least you have warned them of the potential hazard and protected yourself somewhat as well.
 
scwirenut

scwirenut

Senior Member
Location
Sumter, South Carolina
Thank you for your responses, I will print this thread out and let the HO read it, then proceed from there. I believe after all the responses here against leaving it, he will pay to have it changed. Bad thing is the painters just finished......TY
 
electricalperson

electricalperson

Senior Member
Location
massachusetts
usually when something like this happens i tell the HO "it needs..." i never had a homeowner tell me not to replace something dangerous. i also tell them what could happen if it isnt fixed.
 
TOOL_5150

TOOL_5150

Senior Member
Location
bay area, ca
Just to add one more, I would NOT leave it. Actually, I would NOT even think about leaving it. Something will eventually happen and lives will be in danger. ITs not worth it.

~Matt
 
W

wireguru

Senior Member
replace it and the main breaker -no questions about it. I bet theres carbon inside the cable now, and eventually it will decide to short itself out again and catch on fire.

My question is: why is there no nail plate protecting the hole?
 
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