California growing solar (and wind) production thru proposed 2045

Status
Not open for further replies.

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
Fortunately for Texas, they have a problem that money can solve. California, OTOH, there is no amount of money can solve their energy problem, because it is at its core not a technical issue, but a political one.
We have politics in Texas, too, you know. The problems that resulted in the grid outage for most of the state in February are far from being resolved, and politics is in there big time.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
I think you missed the "storage" component. Obviously absolutely critical part for a grid powered only by intermittent sources. Sizing the various elements to ensure the storage never runs empty is a well studied problem (see queuing theory). Backup on demand generation may still be wise.


The whole point of the thread is whether California's goal for the grid is technically feasible. So far I've seen nothing here that says it isn't. People have said it's politically the wrong choice, or too expensive, but where's the technical roadblock?

Cheers, Wayne
Just how would you go about making it technically feasible? you cannot separate the technical aspects from the politics when the state is making the decisions.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
We have politics in Texas, too, you know. The problems that resulted in the grid outage for most of the state in February are far from being resolved, and politics is in there big time.
but it is all solvable with money. there are no great technical issues to be resolved. where there is money to be made off political decisions there will be politics. that is pretty much inescapable.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
Just how would you go about making it technically feasible?
Not having studied the issue, and not being a grid scale engineer, I will just say scale the single family dwelling off grid solution by a factor of 500 million. That obviously will bring up a bunch of technical issues, which would be interesting to discuss, and is what I gather the OP was asking about.

It's absolutely possible to separate the technical from the political. Determining the solution space with best forecasts of costs and benefits for each solution is a technical question. Deciding which of those solutions society should encourage, and structuring policies to move in that direction, is a political question.

Cheers, Wayne
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
Just how would you go about making it technically feasible? ...
Maybe ask the people who installed the energy storage that did this today on California's grid.

Screenshot_20210928-191937_Firefox.jpg
It's been interesting to watch the scale of that graph go from 50MW to 100 to 500 to 2GW since it first showed up a couple years ago. Btw, this also doesn't show behind-the-meter storage, of which there may be another GW or so.
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
....

Incidentally, I am currently working on a test stand that has a diesel genset that can go from a dead stop to full load in a few seconds. It is not real hard to do so. But those kinds of gensets would need to be available in mass quantities for the few hours they would be needed, and no one is going to want to pay for them.

I did some water treatment projects on some peaker plants that used NG fired modified jet engines to make power years ago. They could be online in under ten minutes.

So it is not like the technology to bring on generation rapidly does not exist.

...

It strikes me as odd, in the context of this discussion, that you would tout these technologies for 'bringing on generation rapidly' when the response of batteries and inverters could be measured in cycles.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Yes sir. The Texas event earlier this year is what triggered my curiosity to how viable our predicted reliance on renewables (i.e., Solar/wind) could be. I know Texas is mostly a Wind state but they were less than 2 minutes away from a black start due to the grid frequency drop to 59.4. (this was the first time I heard of this concept). Officials said it would take weeks to get the grid back online in TX if that had happened due to the time it would take to check and test everything out. Again I know very little technically but this is what started the wheels turning.

Thanks again for your posts, I am learning a ton!
One problem in Texas was they had a situation that never had happened before. So you fix things so that it won't happen again, right? Then something even worse that has never happened before eventually devastates you again. One thing to have reserves and standby systems, but when those won't work either you still in trouble and that is sort of what happened.

For potentially political reasons their power grid not able to connect to power from adjacent areas, but at same time many those areas also on the short end of what they can produce and might not have been enough help anyway.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
We have politics in Texas, too, you know. The problems that resulted in the grid outage for most of the state in February are far from being resolved, and politics is in there big time.
True, but just some modifications at some natural gas stations that maybe isn't just too costly considering what may be gained would possibly at least let some area have rolling blackouts instead of just being down for as long as they were. Of course when political figures are involved nothing is easy to solve. You can have two ideas where either one may at least have some reasonable benefit but they will refuse to agree on anything, hold it all up and nothing really gets done.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
Incidentally, I am currently working on a test stand that has a diesel genset that can go from a dead stop to full load in a few seconds. It is not real hard to do so. But those kinds of gensets would need to be available in mass quantities for the few hours they would be needed, and no one is going to want to pay for them.

I did some water treatment projects on some peaker plants that used NG fired modified jet engines to make power years ago. They could be online in under ten minutes.

So it is not like the technology to bring on generation rapidly does not exist.
Not sure where you have been hiding but emergency backup power systems for hospitals have to pick up the load within 10 seconds of the loss of primary power, so this fast transfer generator technology you are talking about is hardly new or unique. Every hospital in the USA has it and they are readily available. But for the average backup system, this kind of fast start is not needed.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Not sure where you have been hiding but emergency backup power systems for hospitals have to pick up the load within 10 seconds of the loss of primary power, so this fast transfer generator technology you are talking about is hardly new or unique. Every hospital in the USA has it and they are readily available. But for the average backup system, this kind of fast start is not needed.
I understand that. I am not advocating anything at all, just pointing out that there is no impediment to having backup capacity as long as it is something reliable like diesel or NG. It is just about money and politics.
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
One problem in Texas was they had a situation that never had happened before. So you fix things so that it won't happen again, right? Then something even worse that has never happened before eventually devastates you again. One thing to have reserves and standby systems, but when those won't work either you still in trouble and that is sort of what happened.
Actually it did happen before almost exactly ten years earlier; it just didn't last as long. That one should have been a wakeup call but the powers that be just turned off the alarm and went back to sleep.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
Actually it did happen before almost exactly ten years earlier; it just didn't last as long. That one should have been a wakeup call but the powers that be just turned off the alarm and went back to sleep.
I doubt anyone took seriously the chance of this kind of this type extreme weather event extending for such a long time. The fact that it happened ten years ago makes the one in a hundred (or thousand) chance of it happening again in one's life time seem so remote as to be negligible.

What is the chance that it will happen again within the next ten years? One in a thousand? One in a million? I don't think we have any good way to quantify the odds of those kinds of things happening but it is pretty low. Most people are unwilling to spend a ton of money on preparing for something with such a low probability of occurrence. That is just human nature.

it is one thing to do so in Montana where weather like this is the norm for months on end every year. It just does not happen in Texas very often and it rarely lasts for more than a day or so.
 

pv_n00b

Senior Member
Location
CA, USA
Occupation
Professional Electrical Engineer
I understand that. I am not advocating anything at all, just pointing out that there is no impediment to having backup capacity as long as it is something reliable like diesel or NG. It is just about money and politics.
But you are advocating that only diesel and NG are reliable as backup power sources. You will find a lot of people will disagree with that.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
I doubt anyone took seriously the chance of this kind of this type extreme weather event extending for such a long time. The fact that it happened ten years ago makes the one in a hundred (or thousand) chance of it happening again in one's life time seem so remote as to be negligible.

What is the chance that it will happen again within the next ten years? One in a thousand? One in a million? I don't think we have any good way to quantify the odds of those kinds of things happening but it is pretty low. Most people are unwilling to spend a ton of money on preparing for something with such a low probability of occurrence. That is just human nature.

it is one thing to do so in Montana where weather like this is the norm for months on end every year. It just does not happen in Texas very often and it rarely lasts for more than a day or so.
The calculation of these sorts of recurrence intervals are far more art than science. For something like this temperature excursion, the record length is far too short to really pin this sort of thing down. Longest records in the US are at most 150 years old, and urbanization can change the max/min temperatures you'll see at any particular location.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
The calculation of these sorts of recurrence intervals are far more art than science. For something like this temperature excursion, the record length is far too short to really pin this sort of thing down. Longest records in the US are at most 150 years old, and urbanization can change the max/min temperatures you'll see at any particular location.
On top of that, a lot of the records are somewhat suspect due to being manually collected and collated until fairly recently. But, for this kind of weather extreme, it is not real important to note a degree or two of temperature change from the norm.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
On top of that, a lot of the records are somewhat suspect due to being manually collected and collated until fairly recently. But, for this kind of weather extreme, it is not real important to note a degree or two of temperature change from the norm.
True, the maximum excursion during the Texas event was -40F below the norm. It's hard to know on sparse data whether you have a normal, long-tail, or other distribution. Of course, now that you've had 2 within 10 years, it's not going to be 1:100. Or maybe it is; probability is not generally intuitive and says nothing about the spacing between any 2 particular events, only what you'll see over the very long haul.
 

petersonra

Senior Member
Location
Northern illinois
Occupation
engineer
True, the maximum excursion during the Texas event was -40F below the norm. It's hard to know on sparse data whether you have a normal, long-tail, or other distribution. Of course, now that you've had 2 within 10 years, it's not going to be 1:100. Or maybe it is; probability is not generally intuitive and says nothing about the spacing between any 2 particular events, only what you'll see over the very long haul.
The fact that it happened twice in a decade does not necessarily make it more likely to happen. It is a more or less random event that we have no good way to quantify.

It is like trying to quantify how many serious hurricanes there are likely to be in a year in a given location. We know from historical records that go back as much as nearly 500 years when hurricanes struck certain areas. Some years they got none at all and other years there were multiple storms. There is just not much that historical weather records can tell you other than that there will be extremes of weather. As for how extreme, how long the extreme will last, or when or how often it will hit, that is a crap shoot.
 

gadfly56

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Professional Engineer, Fire & Life Safety
The fact that it happened twice in a decade does not necessarily make it more likely to happen. It is a more or less random event that we have no good way to quantify.

It is like trying to quantify how many serious hurricanes there are likely to be in a year in a given location. We know from historical records that go back as much as nearly 500 years when hurricanes struck certain areas. Some years they got none at all and other years there were multiple storms. There is just not much that historical weather records can tell you other than that there will be extremes of weather. As for how extreme, how long the extreme will last, or when or how often it will hit, that is a crap shoot.
The US had a "hurricane drought" from 2005 to 2017 where no hurricane of Category 3 or higher made landfall. This was the longest quiet interval since records were kept starting in 1851. The previous record holder was 1860 to 1869. Again, as you say, it's pretty much a crap shoot.
 

wwhitney

Senior Member
Location
Berkeley, CA
Occupation
Retired
The fact that it happened twice in a decade does not necessarily make it more likely to happen. It is a more or less random event that we have no good way to quantify.
Given climate change, for future forecasts it makes sense to weight the more recent behavior more heavily.

I.e. if you knew that something had a constant fixed rate of happening, and you observed it two times in 100 years, I believe the best estimate would be once every 50 years, and it doesn't matter that it was also two times in the last ten years, if you've been observing 100 years.

But as there's strong reason to expect that the rate of occurrence hasn't been fixed over the last 100 or 150 years, a better forecast now would be something like once every 20 years, I expect.

Cheers, Wayne
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top