Chicago and EMT

[don_resqcapt19]

I still think it was likely contractors, unions, maybe even steel industry to some extent.

Get a group together with an intent and plenty of funds to back them and they often get what they want. Won't mention AFCI manufacturers doing anything like that, oops I just did.

But the AFCI guys didn't get to Chicago

 

[480sparky]

In some areas this is probably mostly true.

Anyone in the trade, union or otherwise, who can't bend EMT by the end of their second year shouldn't be in the trade.

 

[zbang]

FWIW, back in the 1980's some former Chicagoans told me flat-out "union featherbedding" and attributed most of the city's work restrictions to that. One could argue whether the fire drove a hard-pipe provision (which other cities' fires haven't) or a boss used that as an excuse. To me, we'll never know for sure, so it's all front-porch (or fishing boat) debating.

 

[kwired]

Chicago has there own code. The current version of the Chicago Electrical code is the 2018. It is a highly revised version of the 2017 NEC. They used about 150 pages of amendments to change the 2017 NEC into the 2018 Chicago Electrical Code.
One of those amendments is Exception #1 to 210.12(A), (B), and (C).

Since the general rule requires dwelling units to be wired using EMT, they don't need AFCIs.
No idea where or why anyone would ever use MI cable in a dwelling unit

But the question is when did it start requiring metallic methods and why? someone has pointed out NM cable used to be in there.

My guess is the contractors, unions, etc. I already mentioned had a major role in it, and wouldn't surprise me if they didn't use the big fires as part of their justification.

 

[kwired]

Anyone in the trade, union or otherwise, who can't bend EMT by the end of their second year shouldn't be in the trade.

I mostly agree, there are tradesmen that only rope houses that can't do it though, particularly in metro areas.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

There is a very limited use for permanently installed NM under the Chicago code.

Revise section 334.10 to read:
“Uses Permitted. Type NM and Type NMC cables shall be permitted to be used in the following:
(1) Temporary wiring for branch circuits as permitted in 590.4(C)
(2) Temporary wiring as permitted for feeders as permitted in 590.4(B)
(3) Limited extensions to knob-and-tube lighting or appliance branch circuits in existing dwelling units in buildings not exceeding three stories in height.”

 

[480sparky]

I mostly agree, there are tradesmen that only rope houses that can't do it though, particularly in metro areas.

That's how I started out. I got hired to rope houses. Never did any commercial or industrial. Told the boss I wanted to learn, but never got sent to those jobs to do anything other than grunt work.... assemble fluorescent lights, shag material, clean up.... So I quit and found employment elsewhere. I didn't want to be a house-roper all my career.

 

[retirede]

My comment when I see this is that you are telling me that electricians who are not in the IBEW don't know how to run conduit

Not necessarily. I think “those without a license” would be more accurate.

 

[480sparky]

Not necessarily. I think “those without a license” would be more accurate.

Licensing has nothing to do with ability. I've worked with people who've had their licenses for decades and can't troubleshoot a 3-way switch, and I've worked with 'hacks' who are top-notch but can't pass the test to save their life.

 

[tortuga]

Historically speaking I don't think Chicago as well as other major other cities (Los Angles I know , I think Philadelphia and a few others) ever adopted the article allowing NM when it came out in 1926.
I believe this had to do with insurance companies, whom where the first enforcers of the code.

 

[480sparky]

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Not necessarily. I think “those without a license” would be more accurate.

If they don't have a license, they are not pulling permits and getting inspected so the rules don't make any difference.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

View attachment 2552393


View attachment 2552394

Looks like even then, it was limited to work in existing dwelling units, and not permitted for new construction.

 

[480sparky]

If they don't have a license, they are not pulling permits and getting inspected so the rules don't make any difference.

Not everyone needs to be an EC. Journey-level workers don't need to pull permits.

 

[hillbilly1]

Licensing has nothing to do with ability. I've worked with people who've had their licenses for decades and can't troubleshoot a 3-way switch, and I've worked with 'hacks' who are top-notch but can't pass the test to save their life.

I've went behind EE's that couldn't wire a three way switch! LOL!

 

[drcampbell]

... No idea where or why anyone would ever use MI cable in a dwelling unit ...

The code isn't a design document; it defines minimum standards. And MI meets the minimum standards.

I have no idea why someone would do an entire house in heavy-wall conduit and cast & threaded boxes & conduit bodies, either. But I've seen it. (in suburban Chicago) Might be the same kind of DIYer who buys a lot with bedrock ten inches below the surface, but even after discovering it while excavating with a wheelbarrow & shovel, acquires a pavement breaker and carves out a full basement anyway. (I've seen that, too)

 

[480sparky]

I've went behind EE's that couldn't wire a three way switch! LOL!

I spent over two hours explaining to an EE the difference between a pilot light switch and an illuminated switch.

The same EE that spec'd "Horsepower-rated switches" for some small pump motors, and I installed SP toggle switches that were horsepower-rated. After several go-arounds, I eventually figured out he was wanting SSUs.

 

[electrofelon]

Not trying to drag up the "conduit as ground/green wire" debate, but anyone know how much you see or dont see that in chicagoland EMT?

 

[g-and-h_electric]

Hoping I dont "shoot myself in the foot " with this...... I have found 1 big advantage to EMT (or any other re-pullable raceway system).... adding a circuit or 2 for a bathroom remodel, can be as easy as just re-pulling the raceway (just did this for a customer) , and the biggie.... multiple colors of conductors really nice when working on 3-way +4-way switches, or just multiple switches or circuits....... Done 4 multiwire circuits (in the old days, before handle ties and AFCI's), had a white solid, white stranded, and gray of the same, made it real easy to keep things straight.

Born and raised in the Chicago area, Chicago licensed since 1986 (passed LEGITIMATELY on the first try), and never saw a whole house, in Illinois with Romex until I moved to Lake county

 

[kwired]

Hoping I dont "shoot myself in the foot " with this...... I have found 1 big advantage to EMT (or any other re-pullable raceway system).... adding a circuit or 2 for a bathroom remodel, can be as easy as just re-pulling the raceway (just did this for a customer) , and the biggie.... multiple colors of conductors really nice when working on 3-way +4-way switches, or just multiple switches or circuits....... Done 4 multiwire circuits (in the old days, before handle ties and AFCI's), had a white solid, white stranded, and gray of the same, made it real easy to keep things straight.

Born and raised in the Chicago area, Chicago licensed since 1986 (passed LEGITIMATELY on the first try), and never saw a whole house, in Illinois with Romex until I moved to Lake county

But disadvantage is with raceway you don't always eliminate a switch or outlet (eliminate the box altogether not just remove device and put on a blank cover) as easily as you might with NM cable. Not that it is impossible but may be able to fish something easily with NM cable but may need to open up the wall/ceiling more to do similar with raceway.