conduit bends

[Smart $]

If I were trying to put a lot of people to work putting in pipe, I would consider 1/2" PVC. It is flexible enough to easily run through holes in studs if the holes are lined up...

I would choose ENT over PVC for use in wood stud walls. That is, if I had to use some form of raceway.

 

[tallgirl]

Assuming you are looking at offsetting 8" at the top plate to get the "poke through" in the center of the wall cavity, I have to ask why you don't just run the conduit straight up through the top plate so no bending is required?

Because there's a chance that ceiling joists will be immediately overhead when ceiling joists are lapped. Aiming for the center of the cavity reduces the risk of something being on the other side of the plate.

 

[iwire]

Like Smart if I had to run EMT in stud walls I would avoid bends as much as possible.

Making one or two nice offsets is satisfying, making 50 is time consuming.

Move the box, don't bend the EMT

 

[tallgirl]

Like Smart if I had to run EMT in stud walls I would avoid bends as much as possible.

Making one or two nice offsets is satisfying, making 50 is time consuming.

This is not always a bad idea! Do you know how boring life can be without 500 channels of cable television?!?

Move the box, don't bend the EMT

Ah, now there's an idea

What does something like that cost? And how available are they? We've tried using supply houses for things like emergency lights that aren't available at Home Despot, but they keep weird hours. Something about not wanting to stay open much past 5PM weekdays or after 12N on Saturdays. Oh, and forget about Sundays. You'd think they hated working the way they're closed on Sundays.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Bob,

Yes ENT is soft plastic like NM, but it is tougher to damage.

That is not my experience with ENT. In my opinion and experience it is much easier damaged than is NM, and don't even think about trying to use ENT if it is cold.
Don

 

[emahler]

well, we've all spent a perfectly good sunday arguing about something that we've lost focus of. It appears that every method has it's advantages and drawbacks. I guess the only question i have is this:

Tallgirl, what on earth are you trying to accomplish?

My understanding was that you were looking for a way to get the wire in the walls, but since alot of times it won't be inspected before sheetrocking, you want the ability to fix it and correct miswires after the walls are up.

Or are you trying to provide an installation that will keep the sheetrockers from damaging it no matter how hard they try?

Or are you trying to make life as complicated as possible for the volunteers working down there?

Every option given in this thread will work, quite well in some cases, for any installation. Some are quicker and easier, but don't offer the protection. Some offer better protection, but are slow and laboreous (sp?)

What is it that you are trying to accomplish?

 

[tallgirl]

well, we've all spent a perfectly good sunday arguing about something that we've lost focus of. It appears that every method has it's advantages and drawbacks. I guess the only question i have is this:

Tallgirl, what on earth are you trying to accomplish?

My understanding was that you were looking for a way to get the wire in the walls, but since alot of times it won't be inspected before sheetrocking, you want the ability to fix it and correct miswires after the walls are up.

Or are you trying to provide an installation that will keep the sheetrockers from damaging it no matter how hard they try?

Or are you trying to make life as complicated as possible for the volunteers working down there?

Every option given in this thread will work, quite well in some cases, for any installation. Some are quicker and easier, but don't offer the protection. Some offer better protection, but are slow and laboreous (sp?)

What is it that you are trying to accomplish?

The two big goals are

1). Make it so electricians and their helpers can put wires in the walls without getting in the way of sheetrock.

2). Come up with something that's relatively foolproof so that if a mistake is made -- like someone runs a piece of 12/2 where they should have run 12/3, or 14/2 where they should have run 12/2 -- it can be fixed.

My thinking is that using conduit makes those two goals possible as my thoughts are that installing conduit in a wall doesn't require a license until conductors are put in. That's the first question to resolve. Whether it's Sch40 PVC, Smurf pipe, EMT or RMC (heh) is irrelevant at this point -- it's a question of whether or not I could walk into your house, without having made prior arrangements with an EC to supervise the job, and start putting some kind of tubing in the walls, and not run afoul of the law.

Bob's suggestion about trying to get people trained to do some amount of work and then have electricians come behind them, inspect and take responsibility for the work is a good one. I've worked that way before and so long as I had access to the electrician who was responsible for the building, it went well. My experience is that without strong leaders this breaks down very quickly. There are two issues -- first, will New Orleans accept this approach as an officially sanctioned solution (that's a huge political hot-potato as developers are pressuring the city to steal the land and give it to them), and secondly, can we find someone who's planning to stay in New Orleans long enough to keep this project alive (and that's a huge issue since no one is paid and people start running out of money after several months paying their own car insurance, cell phone bills, and whatnot) until some of the "team leaders" have the same level of experience and leadership skills.

The suggestion by Smart $, I think it was, to use Smurf pipe is something to investigate if we can just keep people from drilling holes 1/2" from the face of studs (or cutting notches, let's not forget the pathologically horrible case) and then failing to protect with some kind of steel plates. I'm not as concerned about the boredom that might come from bending pipe because there's not a lot else to do but gut houses, stand around a fire barrel, shoot the breeze, and avoid the rats and mosquitos. On the other hand, if I can make some jigs to help people drill holes where they belong, and I can get money to buy some of those fancy 6' Greenlee flexible drill bits, Smurf pipe might not be such a bad idea after all.

Anyway, as I've said before, y'all have given a lot of great advice, feedback, criticisms, etc. and it's greatly appreciated.

 

[emahler]

tallgirl,

for what you are looking to do, i would go with ENT. Learning curve is small, hard to f' up, easy to fix. Easy to set up so that with little work, you can get a wire from any box to any other box.

Greenfield would work to, but ENT would be easiest.

There are great reasons to use EMT or MC or any other method, but for what you want, they aren't the answer.

You can't bend smurf tube the wrong way. But can you imagine the pile of misbent EMT? It would take over New Orleans.

MC/AC - might as well use romex. If you pull the wrong wire, your still stuck.

And trust me, if you can't get people to remember to put nail plates on, you'll never get them to understand conduit bending enough to make them proficient.

These are just my opinions, let the arguement continue.

 

[mdshunk2]

I sometimes have to resort to ENT when the rest of the project is proceeding faster than I have labor available to install NM, MC, or EMT (as long as there are not print specs or applicable codes preventing such use). ENT is pretty much the defacto raceway method for economy and speed, and as a bonus requires little skill to install. I don't like that raceway type one bit for an every day wiring method, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

 

[tallgirl]

tallgirl,

for what you are looking to do, i would go with ENT. Learning curve is small, hard to f' up, easy to fix. Easy to set up so that with little work, you can get a wire from any box to any other box.

Thanks for your comments. I'll have to look into Smurf tube as well.

And please, I don't think of this as an argument. I value the various opinions and pieces of advice and criticism everyone has provided. Your collective concerns and contributions are very much appreciated.

 

[celtic]

Let's not forget box fill and number of bends when using any of these conduit methods....if your volunteers can't distinguish between the color of the jacket and number of insulated conductors within the romex, you'll be "all jammed up".

I'm a big fan of pipe, but I still believe romex will be your friend here...have your people put the nailers on EVERY bored hole.

 

[Kessler4130]

What I always do if I am not using "my" bender is mark 6 inches on a scrap piece and bend it, then take your measurement and subtract the 6 inches you started with. Foot pressure and the amount of times a bender has been dropped tossed and used improperly will change your take up, even if only slightly.

 

[drg]

The 2nd post answered the original question did it not ?

Getting back to answering that question, stub lenght and take up would be the same correct ? Deduction is just the amount we would deduct for
the size bender we are using,

In the O.P. ers question it was 3/4" EMT and bender which has a 6" deduct .

If you mark the conduit 10" from the end of the pipe and put the bender "arrow" on the 10" mark and bend a 90 you will have a 16" stub , I believe that is called take up also.

Now if we are making a back bend and using the "star" thats another issue but I am just trying to answer the orginal question which has seen to have got side tracked.

 

[charlie b]

Tallgirl, I cannot offer any advice on how best to do what you want. I am an engineer, and I have no experience in installing conduit. But I would like to state, for the benefit of those who are trying to answer your questions, what I believe to be the situation you are facing. Please tell me if I have this right.

? Some electricians are donating their time to help rebuild homes in New Orleans. But there is too much work, and too few volunteer electricians.

? You and people working with you are trying to help move the construction process along.

? You want to get as much preliminary work done as can be done legally by non-electricians, and thereby minimize the amount of time that an electrician would need to spend in each house.

? You are thinking that a volunteer could put in conduit, thus making it possible for the sheetrock to be installed (and painted), with the result that construction can continue while you are waiting your turn to have a volunteer electrician available to put in the wires.

? You realize that other wiring methods might be easier, cheaper, faster, and smarter. But since you and your group are not licensed electricians, and since volunteer electricians are available on a limited basis only, you also realize that these methods are not available to you. In other words, if you had to wait for a volunteer electrician to be available to put in NM, that ?waiting time? would place the project on hold.

? Essentially, you are hoping to work around the shortage of volunteer electricians by taking the electrical installation work off the ?critical path? for the overall home construction project.


If that is what you are trying to do, then I applaud your efforts to bring homes to the homeless. I suspect, however, that even the installation of conduit might, as you fear, be beyond the scope of work that an unlicensed volunteer would be permitted to do. The answer to that question lies with the local ?Authority Having Jurisdiction? (AHJ).

 

[kingpb]

CB,

Beautifully stated, it must be why your a Moderator!

 

[tallgirl]

CB,

Spot on! No wonder you're a moderator

Now, if the AHJ says "No", I'll be back next month telling you how wonderful New Orleans is, and by the way, there's a "convention" being held in the beautiful Lower 9th Ward where you'll get to compete in skills demonstrations for fabulous prizes

 

[sparky252]

A simple saying that I have learned and use in the class is:

Oscar Had A Heap Of Apples

The equates to;
The Sine of the angle is the result of the side Opposite divided by the Hypotenuse (Oscar Had)
The Cosine.......

I'm late to this thread...That's not the expression I learn. The one I remember, no offense and I'll translate it for public viewing....

Some old ho, came around here, to offer Arse....

I have even shared that w/ my niece and nephew for their school use, privately, of course.

 

[sparky252]

what part by a licensed electrician?

I was told, "You don't need a license in Louisiana. ... do not license electricians". I was told this in a phone call to a local electricians body from Cameron Parish when a USDA, Dr. Guy ___ rudely told me "Don't touch that huge US Army generator out back cause you don't have a license to practice in the state of Louisiana!". Heck!, no one does. That was 29 sept 2005.

Generator was broke down, 5 days after Hurricane Rita at the Rita HQ for Emergency Operations Center. So as to not get arrested, he threatened that too, I found other stuff to do like p/u the storm debris outside, haul to dumpster the hurricane rain soaked ceiling tiles to the dumpster, marched out to my 'Rebel Red Cross' vehicle and yanked out a brand new Stihl chainsaw. I & chainsaw, carefully wove our way, in & around all the state/national gov't figures, military,Generals in helicopters, press, etc standing around waiting for instruction to take action, to donate the saw into the local gov'ts hands. I should of started it up right next to that USDA Dr. Guy first! :evil:

Sorry I got carried away but I got lots of interesting stories of my time volunteering in the gulf coast. Do you need any electrician contacts? I could probably get some local gov't ones too? NOLA and others. Guess I need to learn more of your volunteering needs.

BTW, I can bend pipe pretty good if you need any help still.

 

[tallgirl]

You don't need a license in Louisiana. They do not license electricians. I learned this in a phone call to Lake Charles, LA IBEW local from Cameron Parish when a USDA, Dr. Guy ___ rudely told me "Don't touch that huge US Army generator out back cause you don;t have a license to practice in the state of Louisiana!". Hell, no one does. That was 29 sept 2005.

Sorry, but Louisiana does license electricians. Things are a bit loose around areas that have just been smacked by a hurricane, but right now I wouldn't advise anyone to act as though there's no such thing as a licensed electrician in Lousiana.

Sorry I got carried away but I got lots of interesting stories of my time volunteering in the gulf coast. Do you need any electrician contacts? I could probably get some local gov't ones too? NOLA and others. Guess I need to learn more of your volunteering needs.

BTW, I can been pipe pretty good if you need any help still.

Licensed electricians with residential experience. Emphasis on residential because I've worked with industrial types (and sailors -- let's not forgot Navy electricians :evil who don't know how residential wiring is supposed to be done. That's pretty much what the need is for. And if you know people willing to live in the 9th Ward, have Louisiana drivers licenses, no criminal records, play nice with others and want to start a career, they could apply for an apprentice card and go from there. There will be work from now until forever. Food and housing in exchange for 40 hours a week is available as well. If they are up for wiring a hot water heater in wherever they are staying, they could even have hot showers

As for pipe bending, after this thread and a bit of time with a code book, catalogs, etc., I think the best approach is 1/2 and 3/4 in. sched 40 PVC and Smurf pipe for horizontal runs below the ceiling.

If you're serious, send me a private message and we can go from there.

 

[sparky252]

About licensing, all I know is that I was told by a local electricians group, "you don't need a license here". Given the situation, I didn't ask for specifics. Maybe they meant I, licensed in another state, did not need a LA license? But that's not how I heard it.

I'm not advocating no licensing....licensing is a good thing.