Crawlspace Wall Dilemma

[wireman3736]

The beginning of 334.15 says, In exposed work, except as provided in 300.11a. cable shall be installed as specified in 334.15a through c.

according to this the only exception to the rule is 300.11a, it does not say unless allowed by other parts of the code, so with that said I believe that 334.23 is more about protection then exposed and since it allows running across the top of the joists in attics not accessible by permanent stairs or ladders as long as it's not within 6' of the hole I feel this shows that running across the joists is not prohibited. you would think crawling around in an attic and stepping on the wire would be more of a hazard then in a crawl space stapled to the joists. Just my opinion.

 

[LarryFine]

you would think crawling around in an attic and stepping on the wire would be more of a hazard then in a crawl space stapled to the joists.

I would, and I do. The way I work, anything between me and the floor is in much greater jeopardy than anything between me and the ceiling, whether I'm walking or crawling.

 

[dlhoule]

If they are exposed, are the joists the building finish?

I am not going to say it is never done, but I can't ever recall a crawl space having rock or any other substance (other than insullation in some cases) on the joists. Therefore IMHO the joists are the building finish, just like they are in a basement or attic until such time as someone decides to put something on it.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

From George
"I'm just curious as to what you'd see and say "Ah ha! This needs protection" versus "Ah ha! This one's never going to be used."


Quote:
I also do not see this as nonconforming to 334.15, as it is following the surface of the construction of the crawl space.

Can you bring yourself to say "the building finish", Pierre?"




As I mentioned, what would trigger me as to the viability of a crawl space used for storage would be the access and height of the crawl space. If access is provided that permits easy access and the average person can get into the crawl space fairly easily, it may be used for storage, then again it may not. Some crawl spaces will really not leave any question.... one such crawl space I wired through, I used a car mechanics backboard to get around in.


George you want me to say "following the structure of the building" ...

 

[LarryFine]

When I look at an unfinished stud wall, I see the stud faces as the wall surface, not the zig-zag path that, say, a crawling insect would have to take crossing the studs. Same for crawlspace "ceilings".

Likewise, I see the top edges of ceiling joists as the surface of an unfinished attic floor. In an attic, the joist top edge is the attic floor, not the backside of the ceiling drywall under the insulation.

 

[Mike03a3]

Looks like a fine solution to me. The 2x4s with OSB are probably "over-engineered" - you could just run a running board down the wall to staple the romex to.

I assume the wall isn't too thick, and you aren't running too many pieces of romex through one conduit that you run into derating issues.

 

[infinity]

I assume the wall isn't too thick, and you aren't running too many pieces of romex through one conduit that you run into derating issues.

Hopefully it's not 2 feet thick!

 

[hillbilly]

So....is there a consensus? Can we staple NM to the bottom of the floor joists in a crawl space or not ?
steve

 

[infinity]

So....is there a consensus? Can we staple NM to the bottom of the floor joists in a crawl space or not ?
steve

I vote for yes.

 

[wireman3736]

I vote yes

 

[dlhoule]

I need a better definition of crawl space. If you have 4' from floor joists to ground with a nice access to it, is it considered crawl space? I know a plumber who has about 4' of clearance and he uses space for storing pipe and ladders. Most of the time I would vote yes, but good design and judgement needs to come into play also.

 

[hillbilly]

I agree with that. I always (try to) apply common sense to everything that I do. Sometimes it's a commodity that's in short supply. The line has to be drawn somewhere. As it is, the AHJ can pass or fail at his (or her) discretion with no recourse available.
By the way, I always run at right angles in a crawspace. I run along the side of the joist to the foundation wall or center support beam (if available), and then I staple to the beam or bottom of the joists. As another poster said, it takes a little more wire, but it sure makes a neat installation. I'm working on a house that has a crawlspace that transitions into a un-finished basement. A wall seperates the two. I stapeled to the bottom of the joists in the crawlspace (5' at wall) and transitioned to running boards as I went through the wall. The owner can still use the crawlspace for storage without damaging the NM. I see no reason to drill holes or install running boards in a crawlspace with this design. Other's opinion may vary,
steve

 

[haskindm]

In reading through these posts another question comes to my mind. When does a basement become "finished"? When I was living with my parents, they had a house with a basement. The floor was tiled, the block walls were painted, but the ceiling was not covered; the first floor floor joists were exposed. Was this a "finished" basement? What if the concrete floor was painted instead of tiled? The more I learn, the more I realize that I don't know!

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

The building department will make the determination of what is considered a "finished" basement. I have seen many different interpretations by different building departments. Some times it amazes me how different it can be from town to town.

 

[dlhoule]

The more I learn, the more I realize that I don't know!

Well, at least I'm not all alone.
And then there is that darn forgetting things at times too!

 

[haskindm]

I agree. My Father-In-Law told me that he was suffering from "CRS". I was concerned until he explained that it stood for Can't Remember Stuff (he used another word for stuff). I tell my students that I don't forget; it is just that I have learned so much that some information has to be "pushed out" to make room for the new information coming in! They usually don't buy it! I wish I could plug a zip-drive into my head sometimes...

 

[George Stolz]

If access is provided that permits easy access and the average person can get into the crawl space fairly easily, it may be used for storage, then again it may not. Some crawl spaces will really not leave any question.... one such crawl space I wired through, I used a car mechanics backboard to get around in.

So, the access is key, and the entrance. Maybe the CMP can define this, because these are very tangible variables to be working with. 8)

So....is there a consensus? Can we staple NM to the bottom of the floor joists in a crawl space or not ?
steve

I vote technically "No." But I recognize that it could be overkill, and should be rewritten accordingly.

 

[JohnE]

Maybe I read art. 334 too quickly, but I don't see the difference between a crawlspace and unfinished basement for the purpose of securing and supporting nm cable.

I certainly see a difference between a crawlspace and unfinished basement for many other purposes.

My interpretation is that every crawlspace is an unfinished basement for the purpose of article 334. I'd allow nm cables through bored holes. If someone wants to have a different interpretation, I won't argue with you. There was a recent discussion from someone who drilled holes too close to the bottom edge of the joist in a crawlspace. Nobody offered as a solution that the cables couldn't be run this way in the first place, FWIW.

 

[JohnE]

OK, this thread is kind of long, so can someone explain the substantiation for being able to staple nm to the bottom of joists. Earlier, I thought the argument was whether you could install nm cables through bored holes in a crawlspace as oppose to needing running boards or following framing surface.

Thanks,

John

 

[dlhoule]

OK, this thread is kind of long, so can someone explain the substantiation for being able to staple nm to the bottom of joists. Earlier, I thought the argument was whether you could install nm cables through bored holes in a crawlspace as oppose to needing running boards or following framing surface.

Thanks,

John

It is a rather murky area as far as the code is concerned. IMO it is just a matter of using some common sense. Basically the code tells us that for exposed work it needs to be done in an approved manner. Well crawl spaces really aren't covered very well in that I don't think they are even defined. So the argument could be made that you can't even run NM in a crawl space.