Fire Station & AFCI

[Dennis Alwon]

Was reading this on another forum. Question was asked whether AFCI is needed in a fire station because they have rooms and permanent cooking facilities.

My feeling was no only because the NEC specifically mentions hotels etc but does not mention fire stations or the like. Obviously it is a fire station but would the bedrooms require afci along with all the other rooms.

 

[480sparky]

But the station meets the definition of a Dwelling Unit.

 

[hurk27]

I would say yes if it meets the definition of dwelling:

Dwelling Unit. A single unit, providing complete and independent
living facilities for one or more persons, including
permanent provisions for living, sleeping, cooking, and
sanitation.

But the ultimate judgment would have to come from the AHJ or those who are in charge of adopting the code for that state or location.

 

[iwire]

We have gone here before, I was on the yes side, Don and Charlie where on the no side.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

We have gone here before, I was on the yes side, Don and Charlie where on the no side.

So do all the rooms need afci or would you just do the bedroom area? What about TR. Can the service be based on 310.15(B)(6)?

 

[iwire]

So do all the rooms need afci or would you just do the bedroom area? What about TR. Can the service be based on 310.15(B)(6)?

Good questions.

I think just like in any mixed use occupancy only the area that would be a dwelling unit would be subject to dwelling unit requirements. Just like a building with store fronts at grade level and apartments above.

But I also see there is a lot of gray area with a typical fire station. A normal dwelling unit in a mixed occupancy has very clear boundaries where in a fire station, at least ones I have seen, the sleeping / eating / relaxing areas blend right into the working areas.

 

[ceb58]

I found out, by working on a fire station, that here in NC due to the reorganization between DOA and DOI that a fire chief can over ride the local inspectors.

 

[WorkSafe]

I found out, by working on a fire station, that here in NC due to the reorganization between DOA and DOI that a fire chief can over ride the local inspectors.

That wouldn't look good for the Fire Chief if he overrode a simple AFCI issue, in my opinion, and are public/state buildings subject to the NEC to begin with? I ask that because OSHA does not have jurisdiction over public/state employees and facilities.

 

[kwired]

Why would this area be any different from other so called "dormitories" The sleeping areas are just that, sleeping areas, cooking, laundry, etc. are usually in separate area. Even if adjacent they likely have fire rated construction between them and the sleeping area that is more protective than what a typical dwelling normally has.

If they have complete "dwelling units" in the fire station then wire them as dwelling units. That would likely mean multiple kitchens and baths not a centralized kitchen or bath and not a dormitory or barracks type of set up.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I guess my thoughts are whether or not it is a bad idea for a fire station to be on afci. If we can assume the bedroom areas don't have any mechanical equipment that may be affected by afci then it is probably not a bad idea.

IMO, there is some bad reasoning using a kitchen with permanent cooking facilities as a determination for afci. It would appear a dorm room that didn't have cooking is potentially more dangerous as the occupants would probably bring in hot plates etc. I also assume the reason for the rule is that many fires start in kitchens... I think this is faulty reasoning that does not protect people in situations that can be just as dangerous.

 

[charlie b]

We have gone here before, I was on the yes side, Don and Charlie where on the no side.

I remember that. And I haven?t changed my mind. My reasoning is that this is not a place where anyone lives. It is a work place, essentially an office. Their work sometimes requires them to sleep, but at the end of their shift they go home to a building that really is a ?dwelling unit,? the place where their family also resides. The fire station building does not have ?living facilities,? but rather it has ?shared sleeping accommodations.? Stop by tomorrow night and someone else will be in that bed.

I distinguish this from a multi-use building, such as a high rise that has some floors being used for retail space, some floors being used for offices, and some floors being used for condominiums. The condo floors include one or more ?dwelling units,? and the other floors do not. The difference here is that people actually live in this building.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

But Charlie it does meet the definition of a dwelling-- that is the only catch for me. Of course you never pass a fire station and say- "Look at that house"

FWIW- hotel rooms with cooking facilities also have different people all the time.

 

[north star]

+ + +

In New York City, some of the fire stations are called / referred
to as "fire houses".......IMO, fire stations DO meet both the intent
and the letter of a dwelling unit......The faces may change, but the
activities there stay the same......The human inhabitants are
"living" [ and working ] there on a short term basis.....AFCI
protection required!.......Firefighters can be subjected to "arc
fault" type fires in their living environments, the same as in
any other type of dwelling units.......The arcing doesn't
discriminate !

$ $ $

 

[kwired]

+ + +

In New York City, some of the fire stations are called / referred
to as "fire houses".......IMO, fire stations DO meet both the intent
and the letter of a dwelling unit......The faces may change, but the
activities there stay the same......The human inhabitants are
"living" [ and working ] there on a short term basis.....AFCI
protection required!.......Firefighters can be subjected to "arc
fault" type fires in their living environments, the same as in
any other type of dwelling units.......The arcing doesn't
discriminate !

$ $ $

Very true if there is a "dwelling unit" involved. This does not necessarily mean the entire facility is a dwelling either. And that is just for the NEC to require AFCI's. NEC does not prohibit using them in other places otherwise not required, if one wants to include them it is fine.

 

[nhfire77]

Having spent years 'living in fire stations they are certainly treated as dwelling units. I also agree by strict definition, Charlie is right. You don't dwell in the station your work there. It feels like home (dwelling unit), but it's just the office and at times the beds are the workbench.


Not only that, the fire chief gets final say in most cases, electrical inspector be damned.

The OP mentioned bedrooms. I assure you, 99% of fire station rooms with beds are NOT referred to as bedrooms. Bunks, quarters etc but not bedrooms, that word is distasteful to some tax payers.

 

[kwired]

Having spent years 'living in fire stations they are certainly treated as dwelling units. I also agree by strict definition, Charlie is right. You don't dwell in the station your work there. It feels like home (dwelling unit), but it's just the office and at times the beds are the workbench.


Not only that, the fire chief gets final say in most cases, electrical inspector be damned.

The OP mentioned bedrooms. I assure you, 99% of fire station rooms with beds are NOT referred to as bedrooms. Bunks, quarters etc but not bedrooms, that word is distasteful to some tax payers.

I tried to say this earlier - most of the time it is no different than military barracks or other similar areas.

Is a homeless shelter or emergency shelter a "dwelling unit"? They are often no different. I say they are not a NEC defined dwelling unit.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Why would this area be any different from other so called "dormitories" The sleeping areas are just that, sleeping areas, cooking, laundry, etc. are usually in separate area. Even if adjacent they likely have fire rated construction between them and the sleeping area that is more protective than what a typical dwelling normally has.

If they have complete "dwelling units" in the fire station then wire them as dwelling units. That would likely mean multiple kitchens and baths not a centralized kitchen or bath and not a dormitory or barracks type of set up.

Most of the ones around here have the sleeping area, living area, kitchen area, and bathrooms, separated from the rest of the station. You could make a good case that that part of the fire station is a dwelling unit. I would see no reason for them to have to have multiple kitchens and bathrooms to meet the definition of a dwelling unit.

That being said, I tend to agree with Charlie that no one really "lives" there so therefore the fire station is not a dwelling unit, but I am having a hard time supporting that using the definition in the NEC, and that is the only one that applies. That definition just speaks to the design of the area and not the use of the area.

 

[jumper]

I remember that. And I haven?t changed my mind. My reasoning is that this is not a place where anyone lives. It is a work place, essentially an office. Their work sometimes requires them to sleep, but at the end of their shift they go home to a building that really is a ?dwelling unit,? the place where their family also resides. The fire station building does not have ?living facilities,? but rather it has ?shared sleeping accommodations.? Stop by tomorrow night and someone else will be in that bed.

I distinguish this from a multi-use building, such as a high rise that has some floors being used for retail space, some floors being used for offices, and some floors being used for condominiums. The condo floors include one or more ?dwelling units,? and the other floors do not. The difference here is that people actually live in this building.

I gotta say I agree with this. I worked at a college and our shop had a kitchen, bathrooms with showers, and a break/rest room with cots. These areas were separated by work bays and what not and IMO it was in no way a dwelling unit. We used these areas for emergency times only.

 

[kwired]

Most of the ones around here have the sleeping area, living area, kitchen area, and bathrooms, separated from the rest of the station. You could make a good case that that part of the fire station is a dwelling unit. I would see no reason for them to have to have multiple kitchens and bathrooms to meet the definition of a dwelling unit.

That being said, I tend to agree with Charlie that no one really "lives" there so therefore the fire station is not a dwelling unit, but I am having a hard time supporting that using the definition in the NEC, and that is the only one that applies. That definition just speaks to the design of the area and not the use of the area.

Having spent time in some military barracks - if arranged like those typically are I would not call them dwelling units, even though they come very close to meeting all of the dwelling unit definitions. Sanitation facilities are generally close to sleeping areas, dining facilities were either in a separate part of the facility or even in a different building. You could call a hospital or nursing home a dwelling if you want to - it does not stretch any thing in art 100 definition of dwelling far at all to do so.

If they are indeede dwelling units then 210.52 requirements must also be met, they never were in the military barracks.

 

[iwire]

If they are indeede dwelling units then 210.52 requirements must also be met, they never were in the military barracks.

We recently did new military barracks at Fort Myer http://www.jbmhh.army.mil/JBMHHhomepage.html and I am pretty sure they had AFCI but that could have been a design choice made by the Corps of Engineers.