Ground Prong up?

[iwire]

Does that mean we need to comply with ALL codes?

Yes, and they don't even have to be codes.

They can use any standard that is generally accepted.

It does not have to be fair, it's the Feds.

 

[M. D.]

I just cruised the thread,.. have we got a quote or a document section that states this requirement ?

I searched also and could not find it ,.. I did find this though

Then you have people who quote NEC rules that aren?t really there, such as the requirement for the orientation of receptacles, ground up or ground down. There is no such requirement. There is a preference, and the preference is either way, depending on who is stating it.

http://www.nfpa.org/itemDetail.asp?categoryID=1427&itemID=34832&URL=Publications/necdigest/necdigest%20in%20Print/Current%20issue/Departments

 

[JohnJ0906]

It does not have to be fair, it's the Feds.

Bob, great quote!

Don't worry, I'll make sure to give you credit!

 

[charlie b]

below 4' the ground prong is up, because when you pull on a cord, you're pulling up, so the ground should be the last to lose contact. Conversely . . . .

Cords should be pulled ?straight out,? not up or down.

Also, I cannot conceive of a situation in which the act of pulling out a cord would create a current path through a person?s body. Do you suppose it is a common occurrence for a person to pick up an old and worn lamp or other appliance, one that is close to having an internal short circuit, and attempt to remove the plug from the wall by jerking the appliance in the opposite direction? I think not.

But if a person is holding an old and worn cord, holding only the cord and not the appliance, and if current leaks out of the hot conductor into the person?s hand, the EGC is not going to be part of the current path. Therefore, the EGC would not be able to save the person?s life, and the status of the ground plug (i.e., whether it is making contact inside the receptacle) becomes irrelevant.

 

[peter d]

Yes, and they don't even have to be codes.

They can use any standard that is generally accepted.

It does not have to be fair, it's the Feds.

Well isn't that just wonderful.

 

[kbsparky]

How do they deal with this one?

Or this one?

These are both UL listed assemblies. How does OSHA reconcile their regs with UL?

 

[iwire]

How does OSHA reconcile their regs with UL?

They have no need or requirment to.

 

[cschmid]

osha is an agency with no holds barred can do what ever they please and the person inspecting electrical issues might not even be qualified..yet after dealing with them repeatedly I have found osha team members to be reasonable if you are cooperative..I have never had a osha inspector tell me ground prongs up and they were here last year..

 

[480sparky]

My last encounter with OSHA ended in a tie. They first inspected a job I was foreman on (school auditorium addition). They asked where all the wire nuts were in my boxes. I said they were in there, just tucked into the back of the box. They said no, they required the ends of the pigtails to have a wire nut on them. I asked why. They stated that the circuit could become energized, and anyone could touch the end of the pigtail and get shocked.

I told them none of the circuits in the panels up in the mezzanine had even been terminated, and none of the panels have even been energized yet. They said makes no difference... the end of every wire on the job must have a wire nut because you don't know for 100% sure where the other end of the wire was.

Fine. I gave one of the cubbies a bag of wire nuts and he spent the day walking the entire site putting wire nuts on the ends of all the pigtails in all the boxes.

Two months later, OSHA shows up again. By now, we're pretty much trimmed out and most of the lights are on, but we're still working on pulling wire in some conduits. So there's a pallet with rolls of 12 and 10 THHN on it. On the end of every spool of wire is a wire nut. The inspector asks me why I did that. I said it was his rule... the end of every wire on the job must have a wire nut because you don't know for 100% sure where the other end of the wire was. I didn't want someone to reach down to pick up a spool of wire and get shocked.

He didn't see the humor in it.

 

[M. D.]

Have we got a quote, of this supposed ,regulation yet??? anyone??:-?

 

[ITO]

I did a job last year that my labor put all the receptacles (about 300) ground up, and nobody said a word until it was time to collect my retainage then the owner decides I can either spin the all ground down or he will take 10 cases of 4’ T8 florescent lamps in lieu of my mistake. I thought about giving him 10 cases of lamps in a different color just to spite him then sat down with the code book to formulate a defense.

Here is what I came up with:

NEC 2005 110.3 (B) Installation and Use
Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

Pass & Seyour receptacles very clearly are shown in the “ground up” position in the included instructions, and it very clearly states “top” on the yoke with the ground in the up position.

So yes the NEC does say ground up with a P&S receptacle, but Hubbell is made to be installed in either position, and it was pure luck that I used P&S on this job.

 

[charlie b]

Pass & Seyour receptacles very clearly are shown in the ?ground up? position in the included instructions, and it very clearly states ?top? on the yoke with the ground in the up position.

Showing a picture of a receptacle with its ground up does not constitute an instruction to install it that way. Nor does imprinting the word ?top? on one side of the yoke. I congratulate you on your good fortune, you favorable choice that prevented you from being cheated by that customer. But unless you can produce the test report from the UL facility (or other lab) that performed the test that gave this product its listing, and unless you can point to the phrase in the test setup or test results that states clearly that the test is invalid if the receptacle is installed the other way, I will not accept this evidence that there is a right way and a wrong way to install that particular brand of receptacle. As an alternative, perhaps you could dig out the instructions that came with the box of receptacles (I presume you buy them in bulk), and show us where they explicitly state that the receptacle must be installed with ground up.

So yes the NEC does say ground up with a P&S receptacle. . . .

It says no such thing.

 

[tallguy]

Cords should be pulled ?straight out,? not up or down.

For the record -- absolutely everything I have seen on the matter makes it very clear that the cord shouldn't be pulled at all, only the plug itself. This is often violated of course... to the detriment of the appliance or what-have-you.

 

[ITO]

So you are saying where the manufacturers clearly stamped "top" on the receptacle does not constitute labeling?

Hmmm... I would disagree, I think it does specify a direction to install the device, not that I put them in for that reason.

Also all the the text including the UL label also reads with the ground side up.

It really makes no difference to me, but I did get my money and on a side note I know a certain inspector and an engineer or two who would make my life difficult with my own homework.

 

[roger]

So yes the NEC does say ground up with a P&S receptacle,

Actually P&S admitts that the NEC does not specify an orientation, it's just their recommendation.

[SIZE=-1]Q: [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Should a standard 15A or 20A receptacles be installed with the ground contact on the top or on the bottom?

[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]A: [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]The ground contact orientation is not specified by the NEC and therefore the receptacle can be installed with the ground pin up or down. As a company, Pass & Seymour/Legrand recommends the receptacles be installed with the ground pin up.[/SIZE]

From this page

Roger
[SIZE=-1]

[/SIZE]

 

[charlie b]

So you are saying where the manufacturers clearly stamped "top" on the receptacle does not constitute labeling?

Yes, I am saying that it absolutely does not! It constitutes a ?label,? but then Campbell?s Soup cans have labels too. Please do not confuse the common English word ?label? with the NEC?s technical term ?label.?

Look at the definition of ?labeling,? in Article 100. When a manufacturer ?labels? a device, they are indicating ?compliance with appropriate standards. . . .? Embossing the word ?top? on the yoke is not a certification that the device meets the standards.

 

[ITO]

I don't really care either way but it all comes down to interpretation, and in my situation the lawyers favored my interpretation, and the way I read it.

Really I just don?t care either way, but when push comes to shove with the AJH, or the lawyers it?s a week legal argument, that you did something correctly, when you did not follow the manufactures recommendations.

Again this only applies to P&S not Hubbell or Leviton.

 

[480sparky]

Another way of looking it the 'top' issue is: What if you install a receptacle horizontally? If there's a 'top' stamped on it, how do you then legally install it?

 

[roger]

Another way of looking it the 'top' issue is: What if you install a receptacle horizontally? If there's a 'top' stamped on it, how do you then legally install it?

You modify it like this.

:wink:

Roger

 

[Fast__Eddie]

Ground prong up was originally require back in "96" in the IEEE standard for Healthcare Facilties..