Grounded conductor identification

[daleuger]

Have you or anyone else you know of proposed a change in the requirement?
Just wondering if any ROC has ever spelled out the reason for the apparently arbitrary line in the sand.

Just remembered that when I was a first year I asked the question why we don't use colored any bigger than 10's the first time I ever saw colored 8's in an existing installation and the journeyman I was with at the time brushed it off by saying that supposedly the colored wire was more expensive than the black and the EC's didn't want to pay the extra for it. That dog don't hunt for me though.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

5-10 Log #1452 NEC-P05
(200-6(A) and (B))
Final Action: Reject
Submitter: G. Scott Jones, Encompass Electrical Technologys
Recommendation:
Revise text to read as follows:
(A) Sizes 6 AWG or smaller All grounded conductors. An insulated grounded conductor of 6 AWG or smaller shall be identified by a
continuous white or gray outer finish or by three continuous white strips on other than green insulation.
(B) Sizes larger than 6 AWG. An insulated grounded conductor larger than 6 AWG shall be identified either by a continuous white or
gray outer finish or by three continuous white stripes on other than green insulation along its entire length or at the time of installation
by a distinctive white marking at its terminations. This marking shall encircle the conductor or insulation.
Substantiation:
Conductors are available in colored insulation for all sizes of wire up to 1000 Kcmil.
This would eliminate the chance of a grounded conductor from being miss marked. In turn, eliminating the chance of the electricians
from terminating the grounded conductor on the wrong terminal, causing a direct short.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement:
The submitter did not provide any evidence of a problem with the existing requirement. The submitter has not provided any
substantiation for this change.
Number Eligible to Vote: 16
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 16
Comment on Affirmative:
MELLO: The panel should continue to reject this proposal. The present break in wire size at larger than 6 AWG is reasonable and
practical. The submitter is correct that larger sizes of conductors can be obtained with white or gray colored insulation, but only upon
special order and increased expense. The break at 6 AWG is generally where branch circuit and feeder wiring is divided and it is more
likely branch circuit wiring will be accessed for modifications after installation, than feeder wiring.

 

[daleuger]

5-10 Log #1452 NEC-P05
(200-6(A) and (B))
Final Action: Reject
Submitter: G. Scott Jones, Encompass Electrical Technologys
Recommendation:
Revise text to read as follows:
(A) Sizes 6 AWG or smaller All grounded conductors. An insulated grounded conductor of 6 AWG or smaller shall be identified by a
continuous white or gray outer finish or by three continuous white strips on other than green insulation.
(B) Sizes larger than 6 AWG. An insulated grounded conductor larger than 6 AWG shall be identified either by a continuous white or
gray outer finish or by three continuous white stripes on other than green insulation along its entire length or at the time of installation
by a distinctive white marking at its terminations. This marking shall encircle the conductor or insulation.
Substantiation:
Conductors are available in colored insulation for all sizes of wire up to 1000 Kcmil.
This would eliminate the chance of a grounded conductor from being miss marked. In turn, eliminating the chance of the electricians
from terminating the grounded conductor on the wrong terminal, causing a direct short.
Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement:
The submitter did not provide any evidence of a problem with the existing requirement. The submitter has not provided any
substantiation for this change.
Number Eligible to Vote: 16
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 16
Comment on Affirmative:
MELLO: The panel should continue to reject this proposal. The present break in wire size at larger than 6 AWG is reasonable and
practical. The submitter is correct that larger sizes of conductors can be obtained with white or gray colored insulation, but only upon
special order and increased expense. The break at 6 AWG is generally where branch circuit and feeder wiring is divided and it is more
likely branch circuit wiring will be accessed for modifications after installation, than feeder wiring.

Ha! Maybe there IS something to it. I'll be damned.

 

[jrannis]

So do we still have a problem marking a white #8 with black and identifying it as an ungrounded conductor?
I see a problem marking a black as a grounded conductor, black with white tape.

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

I know people don't like the rule but if they absolutely won't change it I will follow it. Personally there are several code changes I would make If I were King. However I'm gonna follow it to the best of my ability because it is right and makes for a safer installation.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

If there are 100 electricians, there will be a 100 opinions as to which code section is important to them or not, with each electrician having an opinion about a different item.

With that said, it is the code enforcer's duty to enforce the codes as written. Once that principle is understood by all, it is generally easy enough to follow.

The issue stems when a code enforcer decides for himself/herself that some code(s) do not need to be enforced, or starts to make up the codes.
Then anarchy is the law of the land and people get confused and how shall we say it...really mad.



What is the hardest issue to deal with for the casual reader of the NEC? Not knowing where to look up a requirement, or even knowing a requirement exists. This can be simply a misunderstanding, or it could even be manifested by an inspector/inspectors enforcing made up codes or never enforcing certain items.

 

[Karl H]

I keep one spool of black,white,and green #8THHN on my truck at all
times. If I need #6 white or green I just order it as part of my wire
cuts from the supply house. I'm not going to lie,I have "Phased" #8and#6
white or green hundreds of times too.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

So do we still have a problem marking a white #8 with black and identifying it as an ungrounded conductor?
I see a problem marking a black as a grounded conductor, black with white tape.

The re-identification of a white conductor so it can be used as an ungrounded conductor is not permitted unless the white conductor is part of a cable assembly, and there is no size limit in this rule like there is to re-identify a black tp be used as a grounded conductor. 200.7

 

[jrannis]

The re-identification of a white conductor so it can be used as an ungrounded conductor is not permitted unless the white conductor is part of a cable assembly, and there is no size limit in this rule like there is to re-identify a black tp be used as a grounded conductor. 200.7

I read 210-4 (d) Identification of Ungrounded Conductors, as it is OK to mark ungrounded conductors.
I don't think I have ever seen the a permanently posted identifying directory in or on a panel.
I know what 200.7 (3) reads and it mentions "marking" at the terminals.
Grounded conductors are specifically referenced in 210-5 which are called out in 200-6.
The only clear reference to ungrounded, if read carefully, is 210-4 (d)

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I read 210-4 (d) Identification of Ungrounded Conductors, as it is OK to mark ungrounded conductors.
I don't think I have ever seen the a permanently posted identifying directory in or on a panel.
I know what 200.7 (3) reads and it mentions "marking" at the terminals.
Grounded conductors are specifically referenced in 210-5 which are called out in 200-6.
The only clear reference to ungrounded, if read carefully, is 210-4 (d)

There is nothing in 210 that changes the rule in 200.7. You cannot use a conductor with white or gray insulation as an ungrounded conductor unless it is part of a cable assembly.

200.7 Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or with Three Continuous White Stripes
(A) General The following shall be used only for the grounded circuit conductor, unless otherwise permitted in 200.7(B) and 200.7(C): ...

 

[jrannis]

There is nothing in 210 that changes the rule in 200.7. You cannot use a conductor with white or gray insulation as an ungrounded conductor unless it is part of a cable assembly.

That calls out the cable Assembly situation.
You conveniently left out the reference to marking.
How would you interpret 210-4 (d) when it specifically calls out ungrounded conductors in multi-wire circuits?

 

[romeo]

Grounded conductor identification

In many areas of the country this rule is not followed. Around here it is rare to see white or green larger than #10. I really don't see a safety hazard with the re-identification of a conductor with white tape and if the electrician can't tell a conductor is being used as a grounding conductor without seeing the color green, he has no business being an electrician.

Yesterday I found a light pole at a sidewalk w/2 #12 green and 1 #12 black, one of the green conductors was identified with white tape.The bonding point was not at the base of the pole but at the light at the top.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

That calls out the cable Assembly situation.
You conveniently left out the reference to marking.
How would you interpret 210-4 (d) when it specifically calls out ungrounded conductors in multi-wire circuits?

What wording in 210.4(D) (this is a 2002 code section) says you can use a conductor with white insulation as an ungrounded conductor by re-identifying it with tape?

210.4(D) Identification of Ungrounded Conductors. Where more than one nominal voltage system exists in a building, each ungrounded conductor of a multiwire branch circuit, where accessible, shall be identified by phase and system. This means of identification shall be permitted to be by separate color coding, marking tape, tagging, or other approved means and shall be permanently posted at each branch-circuit panelboard.

You can do anything you want with the conductors that are not white or gray to identify them to meet the rules of this section, but you can't change a white or gray conductor to an ungrounded conductor by re-identifying it unless it is part of a cable assembly.

 

[Greg1707]

#8 white conductor

#8 white conductor

I am installing a panel and need #8 THHN white for the grounded conductor. I went to the supply house today and the smallest white they carry is #4. I wonder if I will have trouble finding it somewhere. I only need eight feet.

 

[LarryFine]

. . . the smallest white they carry is #4.

You sure that's not the largest they have it in white?

I only need eight feet.

Greg, if you feel like driving down to Richmond, I'll give the wire to you.

Any supplier should have it. Try another. Otherwise, try the orange or blue stores.

 

[480sparky]

You sure that's not the largest they have it in white?.....

It's probably the largest the supply house stocks. I've installed 4/0 white on occasion.

 

[augie47]

I am installing a panel and need #8 THHN white for the grounded conductor. I went to the supply house today and the smallest white they carry is #4. I wonder if I will have trouble finding it somewhere. I only need eight feet.

If the #4 fits the lug, use it.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I see the point...I am stuck legally enforcing what is written, rediculous as some codes may be. Thanks. We should all walk a mile in each others boots. "I have".....Hope that made sense.

Yeah, it's hard sometimes when the best explination you can give is, "I'm sorry I don't write the code, I just enforce it."