Hope I'm Not Losing Another One

[jmellc]

Priced a job 2 weeks ago for replacing Knob/Tube & BX through part of house. Customer kicked around for a week, then called & asked if I could work without permits, as the required smoke detectors & AFI breaker drives the cost up so high. I offered some break if he helps. He still doesn't understand why law requires so much extra work.

Rental house. Insulation ctr could not insulate around K/T. So now, with cost what it is, he is considering not doing it at all. Tenant will suffer higher energy bills & outdated wiring. Insulation ctr & myself may have both lost badly needed work. Customer is out of work, rental is his only income right now. Has to be careful of his $.

Another example of gov hurting more than helping. House could be safer but probably will not be.

 

[controlled]

I don't understand how this is an example of the government hurting. Are you saying they shouldn't require permits, smokes or AFI breakers?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Those are the people who want you to work without a permit and at the first problem they won't pay you and use the fact that you didn't get a permit. IMO, if I didn't get a permit I would still do it to code but I would definitely get a permit on this one.

 

[jmellc]

Those are the people who want you to work without a permit and at the first problem they won't pay you and use the fact that you didn't get a permit. IMO, if I didn't get a permit I would still do it to code but I would definitely get a permit on this one.

I won't do it without a permit, but I likely won't do it at all. His point was that with permit, I will be forced to install smokes & AFI that drive the cost up. He only has so much money he can spend.

Recall my other rant on a similar case. This man is not as destitute, but cannot just shell out money either.

 

[jmellc]

I don't understand how this is an example of the government hurting. Are you saying they shouldn't require permits, smokes or AFI breakers?

I say that AFI breakers are very costly & have yet to be proven on safety. How many house fires have you seen that an AFI would have prevented? I say that smoke detectors are a great thing, I push them as hard as I can. But if a customer can only afford a certain amount of wiring, that little bit will get him safer than he is. Big Brother says that's not good enough. He has to get to level 10. Not good enough to go from a 2 to 5 or 5 to 7. If he can't pay for a level 10 job he stays at his current level.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

There is no question that it gets ridiculous at times. You add one outlet and you have to upgrade to smokes, maybe carbon detectors, afci. I wish they would say that we only need AFCI when we start a new circuit. Problem there is people would probably overload existing circuits so they wouldn't have to use afci.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Well since a permit is good for six months from the last inspection, instead of blaming big brother and ranting that you might lose the job, why don't you break the job down into workable portions. Do one of the bedrooms then call for inspection and get paid for that portion. Put in the smoke detectors and get paid for that (which is what I would do first). And on and on.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Well since a permit is good for six months from the last inspection, instead of blaming big brother and ranting that you might lose the job, why don't you break the job down into workable portions. Do one of the bedrooms then call for inspection and get paid for that portion. Put in the smoke detectors and get paid for that (which is what I would do first). And on and on.

Even better, some inspections in NC are good for a year...

 

[cowboyjwc]

Even better, some inspections in NC are good for a year...

Even better. Then you can 2>5, then 5>7 and before you know it, you have a 10.

 

[ceb58]

Priced a job 2 weeks ago for replacing Knob/Tube & BX through part of house. Customer kicked around for a week, then called & asked if I could work without permits, as the required smoke detectors & AFI breaker drives the cost up so high. I offered some break if he helps. He still doesn't understand why law requires so much extra work.

Rental house. Insulation ctr could not insulate around K/T. So now, with cost what it is, he is considering not doing it at all. Tenant will suffer higher energy bills & outdated wiring. Insulation ctr & myself may have both lost badly needed work. Customer is out of work, rental is his only income right now. Has to be careful of his $.

Another example of gov hurting more than helping. House could be safer but probably will not be.

I hear where you are coming from but it is what it is. Just remember every penny he spends on this house he can wright it off of the top at the end of the year on taxes.

 

[Fulthrotl]

I hear where you are coming from but it is what it is. Just remember every penny he spends on this house he can wright it off of the top at the end of the year on taxes.

yep. if he needs a write off.
a lot of folks don't need write offs cause they aren't making any money.

i just quoted another $12k of work today.... and the numbers are good ones.

now, lets see if the customer has any money.... i've got over $80k in bids,
that are just sitting there. i've got the work... nobody else was even asked to
bid them. the work needs doing. mostly light industrial.

nobody is dropping the dime.

either they don't have the money...
or the people who owe them money don't have the money...
or they have a little money, but are scared to spend it.

after everything crashed, three years ago, there was work in the pipeline
that ran out after a year.... then there were people who were getting money,
who needed stuff done.... that ran out after six months.

then there was a little while, where people ordered stuff done, and just skated
for three or four months... or nine months.... that ran out this spring....

everyone needs stuff done, and they don't have any money, nobody they do
buisness with has any money, and nobody knows anybody with any money.

and here we all sit. seems pretty straightforward to me.

and blaming it on everyone from the sitting to the standing president, to
big labor, big buisness, big oil, big BS is really dumb.

this country has spent money collectively, and individually, like a sailor on
a three day pass, since 1979.

and we are freaking broke. we spent it all. and there isn't any more, unless
we print money that is more worthless than the money we are now printing.

have i missed anything?

 

[bradleyelectric]

Except I have work and can't find anyone worth hiring. Called someone today that sent me their info and asked them a few questions including how's your drivers license? Any problems? They told me they just got 3 points for the first time. For what? Failure to avoid an accident. Ok let me check into somethng I might be calling you right back. Check their court record. They are awaiting court on their second dui in the past 2 years among other things. I'm trying to get this thing rolling again and can't find anyone to add.

 

[readydave8]

Priced a job 2 weeks ago for replacing Knob/Tube & BX through part of house. Customer kicked around for a week, then called & asked if I could work without permits, as the required smoke detectors & AFI breaker drives the cost up so high. I offered some break if he helps. He still doesn't understand why law requires so much extra work.

Rental house. Insulation ctr could not insulate around K/T. So now, with cost what it is, he is considering not doing it at all. Tenant will suffer higher energy bills & outdated wiring. Insulation ctr & myself may have both lost badly needed work. Customer is out of work, rental is his only income right now. Has to be careful of his $.

Another example of gov hurting more than helping. House could be safer but probably will not be.

If it's a rental house and you're only rewiring part, what would price be without smokes & AFI's? What does smokes & AFI's add to this price?

I don't necessarily disagree with your position, just wondering how many dollars & what percent additional cost.

 

[readydave8]

I hear where you are coming from but it is what it is. Just remember every penny he spends on this house he can wright it off of the top at the end of the year on taxes.

I dont completely understand write-offs, to me it seems like I'm not having to pay the taxes on the money that I either never got or never got to use.

 

[kwired]

I dont completely understand write-offs, to me it seems like I'm not having to pay the taxes on the money that I either never got or never got to use.

It is kind of funny thing isn't it?

Problem with rental property owners is they do not wish to spend one dime that they feel is unnecessary on the property even if it can be written off, yet they will have things done to their personal property and find a way to call it an expense for their business of operating the rental properties. I get checks from them all the time with some kind of expense noted in the memo section of the check when I know the work I performed was not really for what is mentioned.

 

[jmellc]

Well since a permit is good for six months from the last inspection, instead of blaming big brother and ranting that you might lose the job, why don't you break the job down into workable portions. Do one of the bedrooms then call for inspection and get paid for that portion. Put in the smoke detectors and get paid for that (which is what I would do first). And on and on.

You say do a portion, get inspected & paid, do another portion, etc. Around here, I can't do it in pieces & get separate inspections on each piece. Whole job gets a rough in inspection, whole job gets a final. If I call piecemeal like that, I'll be asked why I called when the job was not ready.

 

[kwired]

You say do a portion, get inspected & paid, do another portion, etc. Around here, I can't do it in pieces & get separate inspections on each piece. Whole job gets a rough in inspection, whole job gets a final. If I call piecemeal like that, I'll be asked why I called when the job was not ready.

Separate permit and inspection for each portion makes each portion a separate job, what difference should it make if each job were 2 weeks or 2 years apart, other than maybe you may be under a different code cycle two years later.

Extra permits and fees as well as your time may end up more for owner when all is said and done but they are not looking at one lump sum type of deal either. Some people live this way even though things cost them more that way. Kind of like going to the corner store and buying food for the next few days or week, vs going to Sam's club and buying in larger quantities at lower prices. If you don't have enough at the time you can't really go to Sam's even though it may cost less in the long haul.

 

[cadpoint]

Here is a google link that shows both NC Housing Codes and covers rental agreements and also both Durham City and Durham County rental agreements.

The owner of the structure has been skirting the law for years. JMHO.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Separate permit and inspection for each portion makes each portion a separate job, what difference should it make if each job were 2 weeks or 2 years apart, other than maybe you may be under a different code cycle two years later.

Extra permits and fees as well as your time may end up more for owner when all is said and done but they are not looking at one lump sum type of deal either. Some people live this way even though things cost them more that way. Kind of like going to the corner store and buying food for the next few days or week, vs going to Sam's club and buying in larger quantities at lower prices. If you don't have enough at the time you can't really go to Sam's even though it may cost less in the long haul.

The problem with seperate permits is that you pay an issuance fee each time one permit will keep that price down.

As for not allowing piecemeal inspections, I don't like them either, but there is nothing that disallows it either. I would talk with your AHJ and explain the situation.

 

[petersonra]

Writing off stuff only works out if there are profits to write it off against.

In any case, you still have to spend the money and many property owners are not making any money on rentals these days.

These kind of problems don't have easy answers. No one (including the owner) wants unsafe conditions. The thing is not unsafe now by the standards of just a few years ago. It is only because the standard of what is now considered "safe" has changed over time, in this case at least arguably in part primarily to enrich a manufacturer of a new product that could not sell ten of these devices except for the fact that guys with guns force people to buy them.

I suspect a lot of unpermitted (and potentially truly unsafe) work goes on largely because there are no good answers to the overreach of government. A fair number of people directly benefit from that overreach and they are pretty vocal because they would be out of luck without it.