Hope I'm Not Losing Another One

[satcom]

Writing off stuff only works out if there are profits to write it off against.

In any case, you still have to spend the money and many property owners are not making any money on rentals these days.

These kind of problems don't have easy answers. No one (including the owner) wants unsafe conditions. The thing is not unsafe now by the standards of just a few years ago. It is only because the standard of what is now considered "safe" has changed over time, in this case at least arguably in part primarily to enrich a manufacturer of a new product that could not sell ten of these devices except for the fact that guys with guns force people to buy them.

I suspect a lot of unpermitted (and potentially truly unsafe) work goes on largely because there are no good answers to the overreach of government. A fair number of people directly benefit from that overreach and they are pretty vocal because they would be out of luck without it.

The government agencies only provide the inspections, they are required by the insurance underwriters, not an overreaching government, when more people that try to understand how the permit process works, the more concerned they will be, with protecting their property with permits.

 

[petersonra]

The government agencies only provide the inspections, they are required by the insurance underwriters, not an overreaching government, when more people that try to understand how the permit process works, the more concerned they will be, with protecting their property with permits.

I don't buy it.

People do understand the permit process. It is about raising people's property taxes.

Permits protect nothing but government and those dependent on government for their livelihood. Perfectly safe structures were built long before there were inspectors or permits, or guys with guns that enforced AFCI requirements.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I don't buy it.

People do understand the permit process. It is about raising people's property taxes.

Permits protect nothing but government and those dependent on government for their livelihood. Perfectly safe structures were built long before there were inspectors or permits, or guys with guns that enforced AFCI requirements.

Actually you don't understand. The quality of your local building department is in direct relation to the cost of your homeowners and building insurance. We don't make a thing off of property taxes that's the county, we don't even notify them. If they want to know what's being done they have to come to the office and look through the permits them selfs. Google earth has done you more harm than any building department will.

And there actually have been building codes for hundreds of years. The ancient Egyptians had a code that basically said that if you built a home and it collapsed and a family member was killed then one of your family members would be killed as the penalty. A lot stricter than you have your insurance rates go up.

 

[ggunn]

yep. if he needs a write off.
a lot of folks don't need write offs cause they aren't making any money.

i just quoted another $12k of work today.... and the numbers are good ones.

now, lets see if the customer has any money.... i've got over $80k in bids,
that are just sitting there. i've got the work... nobody else was even asked to
bid them. the work needs doing. mostly light industrial.

nobody is dropping the dime.

either they don't have the money...
or the people who owe them money don't have the money...
or they have a little money, but are scared to spend it.

after everything crashed, three years ago, there was work in the pipeline
that ran out after a year.... then there were people who were getting money,
who needed stuff done.... that ran out after six months.

then there was a little while, where people ordered stuff done, and just skated
for three or four months... or nine months.... that ran out this spring....

everyone needs stuff done, and they don't have any money, nobody they do
buisness with has any money, and nobody knows anybody with any money.

and here we all sit. seems pretty straightforward to me.

and blaming it on everyone from the sitting to the standing president, to
big labor, big buisness, big oil, big BS is really dumb.

this country has spent money collectively, and individually, like a sailor on
a three day pass, since 1979.

and we are freaking broke. we spent it all. and there isn't any more, unless
we print money that is more worthless than the money we are now printing.

have i missed anything?

Well, one thing. For every dollar in debt that the US owes, there is a dollar in someone's bank account; the money that the country spends does not just evaporate, it goes into someone's pocket. We have been financing private prosperity (for some) with public debt (for us all). It's the worst form of socialism and we've been wallowing in it for decades, and ironically it's "conservatives" who are largely responsible for and benefiting from it.

 

[bradleyelectric]

ironically it's "conservatives" who are largely responsible for and benefiting from it.

regulation usually is done for money or power under disguise of safety or security. Progressives are more for regulation. Unless you believe Soros in his beliefs that you are to stupid to make your own decisions.

 

[220/221]

I'd do it without permits.


I'd do it without AFCI's


I'm not doing a rewire like that without a few smokies. That's just dumb.

 

[jmellc]

Writing off stuff only works out if there are profits to write it off against.

In any case, you still have to spend the money and many property owners are not making any money on rentals these days.

These kind of problems don't have easy answers. No one (including the owner) wants unsafe conditions. The thing is not unsafe now by the standards of just a few years ago. It is only because the standard of what is now considered "safe" has changed over time, in this case at least arguably in part primarily to enrich a manufacturer of a new product that could not sell ten of these devices except for the fact that guys with guns force people to buy them.

I suspect a lot of unpermitted (and potentially truly unsafe) work goes on largely because there are no good answers to the overreach of government. A fair number of people directly benefit from that overreach and they are pretty vocal because they would be out of luck without it.

Thanks, you said it better than me.

 

[kwired]

The concept of the permit and inspection process as well as the standards set to follow (such as the NEC) all have good intention behind them.

Is there corruption and abuse of powers, yes. This is not a fault of the permit and inspection process in itself. We have similar corruption and abuse of powers in many areas of governing agencies, and private sector agencies.

All you can do is what you feel is the right thing to do - for most it is follow the laws and if you don't like the laws use the proper channels to try to get them changed. If you try to ignore them or change them yourself, there may be a price to pay for it.

 

[renosteinke]

What is the expressed purpose of the NEC? Or, for that matter, any model code?

"The practical safeguarding ....."

I submit that every time any other motive is applied to the NEC, it loses some legitimacy- no matter how well-intentioned the new influence is.

Regarding changes in the NEC over the years ... I simply cannot accept that the 1963 new house I was raised in was a deathtrap. Yet, the electrial would need extensive redesign to meet today's code. I have a problem with that.

Still, I recognize that the original 1963 wiring design is not adequate to today's needs. Indeed, I recall our adding quite a few receptacles to the kitchen counter, just to illustrate the point. Yet, again, we have here the distinction to make between 'minimum' and 'ideal.'

The point was probably best made when the NEC (2005? 2008?) decided to require a phone jack be installed. A phone jack- at a time when many folks are doing away with hard-wired phones completely. I just have to wonder how we all managed to figure out we needed phone jacks for the 100+ years before the NEC discovered this need. Just as amazing is that we actually had things that the NEC did not require!

Likewise, the phone guys had all manner of gizmos for landing their ground wires for decades before the NEC discovered a need for an 'intersystem grounding terminantion.' An amazing transformation then took place: a $6 ground bar suddenly became a $50 "IGT". What's going on?

Set aside the evil manufacturers for a moment. We have all manner of folks working overtime to insert their 'expertise' into other folks' business- backed by the force of government. It sure is easy to make decisions for other folks.

The result is that the less competent, less conscientious, less regulated guy starts to gain advantage. Why build expensive new apartments, when you can stumble along with the old shack ..... it's not like the tenants have much choice. After all, we've let the "system" ensure that competing landlords are faced with an all-or-nothing situation regarding upgrades.

We also make it easier for the 'gray market' contractor. The guy who does 'side work,' or simply operates below the radar.

Then along comes some college boy who asserts that these 'outlaw' activities demand greater governmental intrusion .... failing to recognize that governemntal intrusion is what created the situation.

So ... what can we do?
Well, part of the solution is to limit ourselves to accepting the customers' goal and giving a simple price. Do NOT trouble the customer with the details of what you need to do - or he'll be questioning your every move, every choice. Don't tempt him.

Likewise, even the first call the customer makes needs to stress that you are the REAL THING, a real contractor, and not someone sitting in a bar waiting for the cell phone to ring.

Next, accent the positive: YES, I can do it. I can do it FASTER. I can do it NOW. I'm PROFESSIONAL. I will do all the ADDITIONAL stuff ... repair my holes, clean up my mess, work around your schedule, etc. Stress all the 'extras' the trunk-slammer won't provide.

SELL the job. Why do you think folks like Service Magic place so much emphasis on truck artwork and uniforms? It's because they see the value in looking PROFESSIONAL.

Finally ... and here's the hard part ... you want to make the customer want YOU. You need the customer to believe that you don't work for just anybody, that only the BEST customers get your services. Everyone wants to be among the 'chosen few.'

 

[ggunn]

regulation usually is done for money or power under disguise of safety or security. Progressives are more for regulation. Unless you believe Soros in his beliefs that you are to stupid to make your own decisions.

Another reason for regulation is that human beings have repeatedly and often spectacularly demonstrated that they cannot be trusted to do the right thing when faced with financial incentives to do otherwise. Removal of regulation is for some a license to pillage.

 

[stevenje]

Insulation ctr & myself may have both lost badly needed work. Customer is out of work, rental is his only income right now.

It is tough out there for most folks and I see little if any improvement in the near future. All you can do is give him your best price and then move on to the next one.

 

[kwired]

What is the expressed purpose of the NEC? Or, for that matter, any model code?

"The practical safeguarding ....."

I submit that every time any other motive is applied to the NEC, it loses some legitimacy- no matter how well-intentioned the new influence is.

Regarding changes in the NEC over the years ... I simply cannot accept that the 1963 new house I was raised in was a deathtrap. Yet, the electrial would need extensive redesign to meet today's code. I have a problem with that.

Still, I recognize that the original 1963 wiring design is not adequate to today's needs. Indeed, I recall our adding quite a few receptacles to the kitchen counter, just to illustrate the point. Yet, again, we have here the distinction to make between 'minimum' and 'ideal.'...

'

Paul Harvey used to say "Self government will not work without self discipline".

Back in 1963 how likely was it that if someone was electrocuted in the new house or it burned down that they were going to attempt to sue the contractor, sub contractor, supplier, distributor, manufacturer, product design engineer, maybe the power company, the electrical inspector, Underwriters Lab, the next door neighbor, the fire department or rescue unit for not arriving fast enough, the hospital, the city, state or federal government, God, I don't know where to stop?

Back then insurance compaines actually paid claims instead of putting blame on someone else and trying to make them pay instead. I know things can be complicated and there is plain outright fraudulent claims, but it is nothing but a big game anymore with a lot of $$$ at stake.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Another reason for regulation is that human beings have repeatedly and often spectacularly demonstrated that they cannot be trusted to do the right thing when faced with financial incentives to do otherwise. Removal of regulation is for some a license to pillage.

Very well said. I have mentioned time and again, that even the best contactor would start taking short cuts if he knew that no one was ever going to look at his work.

 

[mtfallsmikey]

Musings from the house plumber...

Musings from the house plumber...

Let's say you did the job, without permits, but installed all the smokes,AFCI's, everything to code, then the owner goes back later, adds a recp., then the tenant gets electrocuted. Will you be sued? Heck yes!

Also, in the rental house we have, we had an EC install BB heat last year. Sure, I'm a licensed Master, but I have little time to do things like that, and we can't write off my labor. That install was a capital improvement, which has to be depreciated over time, vs. a straight-up replacement/repair, which the full cost can be written off immediately.

 

[ggunn]

Very well said. I have mentioned time and again, that even the best contractor would start taking short cuts if he knew that no one was ever going to look at his work.

Worse than that, once one contractor starts cutting corners to gain a competitive advantage, the rest will follow suit to try to level the field.

 

[cowboyjwc]

Worse than that, once one contractor starts cutting corners to gain a competitive advantage, the rest will follow suit to try to level the field.

Again, I couldn't agree more.

 

[Strife]

I'm sorry, but when an AFCI panel cost 800 (from 140 some), it gets prohibitive.
And this is only the price of the panel, no labor, no new home runs.
Do any of you red ribbon pushers realize it's almost 1% of most home values?
Of course, none of you care about it.

Well since a permit is good for six months from the last inspection, instead of blaming big brother and ranting that you might lose the job, why don't you break the job down into workable portions. Do one of the bedrooms then call for inspection and get paid for that portion. Put in the smoke detectors and get paid for that (which is what I would do first). And on and on.

 

[cowboyjwc]

I'm sorry, but when an AFCI panel cost 800 (from 140 some), it gets prohibitive.
And this is only the price of the panel, no labor, no new home runs.
Do any of you red ribbon pushers realize it's almost 1% of most home values?
Of course, none of you care about it.

Do all of you guys believe that since we work for a jurisdiction we get a discount on labor and materials. I pay the same thing you do and I get charged the same price that you do. And I would move anywhere where $800 was one percent of my home value since it's only about ten percent of one percent here.

My job isn't to worry about cost, that's your job. If it cost's to much then charge less. Yeah that'll happen, so it's gotta be the governments fault.

When the '94 earthquke hit here 16 people died. Some in accidents and a few heart attacks and several in a building collapes. that was a 6.7 magnitude. A few months later one hit over seas and 1000 people died in a 4.0 earthquake. Codes work.

 

[satcom]

Do all of you guys believe that since we work for a jurisdiction we get a discount on labor and materials. I pay the same thing you do and I get charged the same price that you do. And I would move anywhere where $800 was one percent of my home value since it's only about ten percent of one percent here.

My job isn't to worry about cost, that's your job. If it cost's to much then charge less. Yeah that'll happen, so it's gotta be the governments fault.

When the '94 earthquke hit here 16 people died. Some in accidents and a few heart attacks and several in a building collapes. that was a 6.7 magnitude. A few months later one hit over seas and 1000 people died in a 4.0 earthquake. Codes work.

John, what we need to do is get rid of all the codes and laws, I want my grand children to experience living in a sub standard housing, and go back in time and learn to live like a cave man, the first codes to go should be the plumbing codes, I want my grand children to experience all conditions that open duct water systems can provide, and the next codes to go, should be the fire codes, so they will learn to stay in the cave.

Good code history link http://www.buyerschoiceinspections.com/history-of-building-codes

 

[renosteinke]

Codes work ... or do they?

We've been putting up buildings a lot longer than there have been codes; some of these early structures are still in use. Indeed, even today our greatest structures go up without the least bit of input from 'code enforcement' or building departments. Doubt me? Fair enough ... I want to see the building permit issued to the Golden Gate bridge ... or the Hoover Dam .... Even today, the smallest jurisdiction continues to assert that they are their own AHJ, exempt from the rules all us need follow.

Instead, we wind up with 'unintended consequences' and simple corruption. Licensing laws are used to restrict competition, and codes are used to protect commercial interests. This is not just rhetoric; there are plenty of historical and legal records on this point. Likewise, government tends to grow, and insert itself into the most minute details.

Is there a 'right' answer? I believe that there is. In founding this bold experiement of a nation, our founders deliberately chose to hamstring government. Simply saying 'it's for your own good' wasn't enough; their entire goal was to regulate the government ... rather than the people. "Codes work" was, to them, as a ham sandwich is to kosher rules.

If not government, then what? Amazingly enough, there are also plenty of instances of private enterprise and free markets ensuring that 'codes work.' Perhaps the best description can be found in "Life on the Mississippi," where Mark Twain describes how the insurance companies changed the way the steamboat pilots operated. This was the free market at work; no law required insurance.

Insert government into things, and now you have given the scofflaw an advantage. Ever see an Army base or a housing project? That's what governemnt gives you.

Codes work? Tell that to the California homeowners whose local codes force them to cover their homes with oil-soaked wood shakes. Tell it to the Tahoe homeowner who was facing charges for simply raking up the loose pine needles around his house ... until a wildfire burned down every house on the street ... except his! "Thank you, TRPA, for such a nice fire" read the bumper stickers.

Government has to recognize that they are part of the problem- and that expanding their role only makes it worse.