I hope this was done off the clock.

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PetrosA

Senior Member
It could have come from a Russian site, but the equipment positively looks North American (Canadian perhaps?)

This is what the loadcenters look like in Russia and most of Europe:


View attachment 11777

That part of the world is a free-for-all when it comes to our trade..
No codes being followed, and any trade standards used are guidelines at best.

With their residential supply being single-phase 230 volts hot leg to grounded neutral, as a standard, they OCP 1.5 mm2 conductors (roughly an equivalent of 16 awg) at 10A, and 2.5 mm2 conductors (12 AWG) at 16A, allowing to them to carry 2,300 watts on 14AWG and 3680 watts on 12 AWG conductors..
Crazy!

Not crazy at all. Firstly, you're forgetting that the max amperage works out to be very close to what we allow when you calculate it at 230V. Second, the vast majority of wiring is embedded in brown coat and plaster on block, brick or stone walls, greatly reducing the risk of fire from an electrical source as well as being a good heat sink for the cables. Third, their 10A and 16A breakers rated at 100% are very roughly equivalent to our 15A and 20A breakers derated to 80%. Not so different after all...

The real difference is in how electricians think. We're trained to size up for safety and use at least a 20% derating as a margin of error in almost all our calculations but almost no one here could actually calculate the true capacity for a given cable in a given installation and predict it's operating temperature and various other parameters (anyone less than an engineer wouldn't be allowed to use those calculations even if they could do them here). They can calculate and run at 100% for their conditions and don't tend to oversize like we do because they use much more detailed information for making the calculations in the first place.
 

PetrosA

Senior Member
How so?
With the North American 120/240, with hot-to-hot 240V in counterphase, yes, it's more efficient, but how is it more efficient with neutral-to-hot at 230 setup?

Because wire capacity is rated in amps, and amps is watts/volts regardless of whether it's phase to phase or phase to neutral. Household loads are similar wherever you are, so with a smaller wire at a higher voltage, you can distribute the same number of watts for a lower installation cost and tie up less copper in buildings to boot.
 
Because wire capacity is rated in amps, and amps is watts/volts regardless of whether it's phase to phase or phase to neutral. Household loads are similar wherever you are, so with a smaller wire at a higher voltage, you can distribute the same number of watts for a lower installation cost and tie up less copper in buildings to boot.

Hmmm.. I am missing something?
Please, bear with me..

In North America:
A 120-volt 20-amp circuit can supply 2400 watts, and a 12 awg current-carrying conductor is rated for that wattage.
A 240 volt 20-amp circuit, again, in North America: two 12 awg current-carrying conductors can supply 2400 watts each, thus resulting in the circuit's total capacity of 4,800 watts..

In the European setup, the one and only phase is 230V to neutral. They bravely OCP 12 awg at 16A for a total carrying capacity of 3680 watts.
I hear you about their way of thinking vs. ours, but still, that's way under what we can do in the US with two 12 AWG conductors.

So, how is their way more efficient?
 
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PetrosA

Senior Member
Hmmm.. I am missing something?
Please, bear with me..

In North America:
A 120-volt 20-amp circuit can supply 2400 watts, and a 12 awg current-carrying conductor is rated for that wattage.
A 240 volt 20-amp circuit, again, in North America: two 12 awg current-carrying conductors can supply 2400 watts each, thus resulting in the circuit's total capacity of 4,800 watts..

In the European setup, the one and only phase is 230V to neutral. They bravely OCP 12 awg at 16A for a total carrying capacity of 3680 watts.
I hear you about their way of thinking vs. ours, but still, that's way under what we can do in the US with two 12 AWG conductors.

So, how is their way more efficient?

Our 240V circuits are about as efficient as their 230V circuits when looking at wire size to load ratio in watts. But most of our loads are 120V so the comparison has to be based on that. They are allowed to load a 2.5 mm2 cable on the wall (under plaster) to 16 amps @ 230V which allows for a 3.6 kW load. We're allowed to load a 12 AWG (3.31 mm2) cable to 16 amps as well, but at 120V we're only getting 1.9 kW out of that circuit. At 240V we'd be getting 3.8 kW out of that same cable (don't forget to derate to 80%). So we're installing a lot more copper that's transporting a lot less electricity. That's where the efficiency difference comes from. It's also why they limit the size of certain appliances here N. America like cordless teapots, hair dryers and coffee makers to almost a thousand watts less than what the same model would have in Europe - our system can't handle the load.

This might interest you:

http://www.cablesizer.com/
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
How so?
With the North American 120/240, with hot-to-hot 240V in counterphase, yes, it's more efficient, but how is it more efficient with neutral-to-hot at 230 setup?

Where did I say either way was more efficient?

I did say I though for most things that straight 230 volts was probably a better way of doing it, but never mentioned efficiency.

Poor efficiency would mean there is some losses somewhere, with lower voltages you can develop more losses if you don't compensate with more conductor material because of voltage drop - but that is more of a design cost issue then an actual efficiency issue. On the other hand we could wire our homes with 4160/2400 volts - but the insulation systems and other specialty items can make that expensive though there would be virtually no voltage drop in a typical home, plus this is not a voltage system you want a homeowner to be able to easily get their hands on and try to work on.
 
Where did I say either way was more efficient?

I did say I though for most things that straight 230 volts was probably a better way of doing it, but never mentioned efficiency.

Poor efficiency would mean there is some losses somewhere, with lower voltages you can develop more losses if you don't compensate with more conductor material because of voltage drop - but that is more of a design cost issue then an actual efficiency issue. On the other hand we could wire our homes with 4160/2400 volts - but the insulation systems and other specialty items can make that expensive though there would be virtually no voltage drop in a typical home, plus this is not a voltage system you want a homeowner to be able to easily get their hands on and try to work on.

Maybe I misunderstood you, but then, what do you mean by "better"?
In other words, what makes 230 phase-to-neutral better than our system in the US?
Not challenging your assertion, just trying to understand.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Maybe I misunderstood you, but then, what do you mean by "better"?
In other words, what makes 230 phase-to-neutral better than our system in the US?
Not challenging your assertion, just trying to understand.

Higher voltage = (for same VA) less voltage drop, smaller conductors needed, smaller switches/overcurrent devices/etc., though MWBC's kind of equalize things some - they will use three conductors instead of two to supply the same possible VA.

IMO biggest disadvantage - higher shock risk if you come in contact with an ungrounded conductor, but they seem to get along fine, and maybe even with less incidents then we have here in USA with what they have in countries where they use straight 230 volts single phase, but that can go beyond just the voltage itself and into installation methods or safety precautions.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
It could have come from a Russian site, but the equipment positively looks North American (Canadian perhaps?)

This is what the loadcenters look like in Russia and most of Europe:


View attachment 11777

That part of the world is a free-for-all when it comes to our trade..
No codes being followed, and any trade standards used are guidelines at best
.

With their residential supply being single-phase 230 volts hot leg to grounded neutral, as a standard, they OCP 1.5 mm2 conductors (roughly an equivalent of 16 awg) at 10A, and 2.5 mm2 conductors (12 AWG) at 16A, allowing to them to carry 2,300 watts on 14AWG and 3680 watts on 12 AWG conductors..
Crazy!

:slaphead:

If you are talking about Europe itself that is not the case, far from it. In fact in most places installations standards are much stricter. For example all new circuits require meggering and earth fault loop impedance testing something not done in that states.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
With their residential supply being single-phase 230 volts hot leg to grounded neutral, as a standard, they OCP 1.5 mm2 conductors (roughly an equivalent of 16 awg) at 10A, and 2.5 mm2 conductors (12 AWG) at 16A, allowing to them to carry 2,300 watts on 14AWG and 3680 watts on 12 AWG conductors..
Crazy!
:slaphead:

If you are talking about Europe itself that is not the case, far from it. In fact in most places installations standards are much stricter. For example all new circuits require meggering and earth fault loop impedance testing something not done in that states.

Kind of my thoughts as well - where we are allowed to use 16 AWG it generally is considered a 10 amp conductor, and we generally allow up to a 20 amp overcurrent device on 12 AWG instead of only 16 amps. Voltage to ground for typical everyday/household things is double what it typically is in North America, yet they don't seem to have much increase in accidents that seem to be deemed because of this voltage, and if anything maybe even have less accidents in this area. If anything there may be less accidents because there is possibly less amateurs doing installations then there is in the US and the installations are done to whatever codes/standards apply instead of the typical amateur approach of - if I turn on the switch and it operates, it must be done correctly.
 

fifty60

Senior Member
Location
USA
Whatever advantages they have by using the single phase 230V to neutral approach vs our 120V/240V split-single phase approach is completely wiped out by their use of 50 Hz. Whereas 60Hz was determined by Tesla sweating himself to death to find the optimal frequency, the 50 Hz came from the international all encompassing use of the metric system and nothing more.

I'll bow to the metric system's superiority for most things, but for AC transmission it underperforms. I think the optimal situation, if everything could be started from scratch, would be the 230V to neutral 60Hz..
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
Whatever advantages they have by using the single phase 230V to neutral approach vs our 120V/240V split-single phase approach is completely wiped out by their use of 50 Hz. Whereas 60Hz was determined by Tesla sweating himself to death to find the optimal frequency, the 50 Hz came from the international all encompassing use of the metric system and nothing more.

I'll bow to the metric system's superiority for most things, but for AC transmission it underperforms. I think the optimal situation, if everything could be started from scratch, would be the 230V to neutral 60Hz..

Why so? Im not say your wrong but I wonder why that is. :? Wouldn't line charging currents go down (Im guessing)?


Personally Id pick 3x240 pas neutre 60Hz if we had to start from scratch.
 
transformers are smaller/cheaper at higher frequencies for one thing.

I would like to see higher voltages here in the US if we could start over. the 120/208 system is just on the lame side of things and has always bugged me a bit, a good 50% higher would improve efficiency and wire size a lot. I think utilizing ungrounded systems like a lot of the rest of the world does would greatly reduce shocks and make an increased voltage system safer. I have gotten probably hundreds of 120v shocks in my career but only maybe line to line shocks. There is the issue of the first fault though and Im not sure how those ungrounded folks deal with that in a residential setting?
 

GoldDigger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Placerville, CA, USA
Occupation
Retired PV System Designer
transformers are smaller/cheaper at higher frequencies for one thing.

I would like to see higher voltages here in the US if we could start over. the 120/208 system is just on the lame side of things and has always bugged me a bit, a good 50% higher would improve efficiency and wire size a lot. I think utilizing ungrounded systems like a lot of the rest of the world does would greatly reduce shocks and make an increased voltage system safer. I have gotten probably hundreds of 120v shocks in my career but only maybe line to line shocks. There is the issue of the first fault though and Im not sure how those ungrounded folks deal with that in a residential setting?
From what I have heard about the situation in Scandanavia, the first fault is simply never dealt with. Any maintenance waits for the second fault to force the issue.
If I am recalling the statistics correctly something like 40% of the residential services (each on its own transformer) had a long term ground fault somewhere.
 

big john

Senior Member
Location
Portland, ME
...I think utilizing ungrounded systems like a lot of the rest of the world does would greatly reduce shocks and make an increased voltage system safer. I have gotten probably hundreds of 120v shocks in my career but only maybe line to line shocks. There is the issue of the first fault though and Im not sure how those ungrounded folks deal with that in a residential setting?
From what little I know of overseas wiring a lot of places use some form of low-current ground fault detection on the entire residence.

Many places in Europe apparently also have strict requirements that house wiring must undergo routine insulation-resistance tests, so this would help remove some of the ground-fault risk.

While all my experience is on ungrounded industrial and utility systems, I know that those do nothing to ameliorate the risk of electrocution due to cumulative leakage and capacitive coupling. It's possible on very small, routinely meggered house systems having them ungrounded might reduce the shock hazard, but that's a big "might."
 
I left out the number of line to line shocks I have received. Only 2 or 3 that I can recall.

Well if there are many systems with an unmitigated first fault , than in those of course one could still receive a line to ground shock. I thought about capacitive coupling too, not sure if that would be strong enough in a typical dwelling with relatively low voltage and few metallic components to result in a line to ground shock, but my guess is generally no.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
transformers are smaller/cheaper at higher frequencies for one thing.

I would like to see higher voltages here in the US if we could start over. the 120/208 system is just on the lame side of things and has always bugged me a bit, a good 50% higher would improve efficiency and wire size a lot. I think utilizing ungrounded systems like a lot of the rest of the world does would greatly reduce shocks and make an increased voltage system safer. I have gotten probably hundreds of 120v shocks in my career but only maybe line to line shocks. There is the issue of the first fault though and Im not sure how those ungrounded folks deal with that in a residential setting?

Ok, that makes sense, but my understanding is capacitive inductive currents go up the higher the frequency?

IMO a line to line 240 volts system should be implemented in residential and light commercial while 240/415Y is reserved for larger applications. This would be a win-win combination. Both systems cover the same 240 volt loads while 415 volts covers big motors in industrial.

I would avoid a totally ungrounded system as arcing faults to ground would cause over voltages.

I would either go with a solidly earthed system or a high resistance ground where a resistor is sized to allow at least 20% more current over the normal capacitive to ground reactance preventing over voltages above 173% during a fault. This would also allow a GFI to trip if capacitive currents were not enough (like a small pole pig feeding one small home).

Employing GFIs on all circuits would enhance safety preventing a high resistance grounded system from having a perpetual ground fault.




From what I have heard about the situation in Scandanavia, the first fault is simply never dealt with. Any maintenance waits for the second fault to force the issue.
If I am recalling the statistics correctly something like 40% of the residential services (each on its own transformer) had a long term ground fault somewhere.

Norway screwed up what was supposed to be something elegant, an IT (unearthed neutral) system:

1. Older homes did not have RCDs, so a ground fault would remain unnoticed. A fault somewhere else would blow one or both fuses. Often changing the fuse would cause another circuit to blow, and then changing that circuit would cause the first circuit to blow... a dog chasing its tail. Good luck if the other fault is in a different building. The result is most IT systems inadvertently becoming TNs for decades at a time.


2. The grounding systems were not interconnected between homes. Worked well... until Phase A would fault to ground in one home, and then phase B would fault to ground in another home. The result was 230 volts between 2 homes, energizing both grounding systems to dangerous potentials. :eek::eek: This condition is believed to be responsible for many electrical fires in Norway.


What Norway should have done was started off with a 3x230 volt solidly grounded system having a ground wire delivered to each home. This would provide a low impedance path to clear the first fault in addition to preventing grounding systems from turning at opposing potentials.


As RCDs are quickly being fitted in existing installations the solid ground would be converted into a high resistance ground at the transformer. That way the benefits of an IT system while the RCDs prevent it from becoming a long term TN.



Of course, someone outsmarted themselves:happysad:




From what little I know of overseas wiring a lot of places use some form of low-current ground fault detection on the entire residence.

Many places in Europe apparently also have strict requirements that house wiring must undergo routine insulation-resistance tests, so this would help remove some of the ground-fault risk.

While all my experience is on ungrounded industrial and utility systems, I know that those do nothing to ameliorate the risk of electrocution due to cumulative leakage and capacitive coupling. It's possible on very small, routinely meggered house systems having them ungrounded might reduce the shock hazard, but that's a big "might."


In over seas wiring RCDs are mandatory in most circuits as well as insulation resistance testing of new and upgraded circuits. The standards in the EU are very strict with most electricians caring a multi function megger. If a circuit doesn't megger high enough, then it must be corrected before energizing.


I would never bother designing a system having leakage currents so small where it would be impossible to receive harm as every room would need an isolation transformer. However, having a high resistance ground with GFP on all circuits greatly enhances safety and reduces the incident energy at a fault.

Keeping the voltage below 150 volts to ground in residential and light commercial while having 240 volts at all utilization equipment would be the most optimal. A 3 phase 3 wire system fed by a 139/240Y transformer would not be a bad implementation.
 

PetrosA

Senior Member
If we're going to move towards 240/415Y then why not just go with a 230/380Y nominal standard, so that when guys ask what they should do with overseas equipment to adapt it we could just write "Change the cord end" and be done with it ;)
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
If we're going to move towards 240/415Y then why not just go with a 230/380Y nominal standard, so that when guys ask what they should do with overseas equipment to adapt it we could just write "Change the cord end" and be done with it ;)

Doesn't help much if frequency needs changed.
 

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
If we're going to move towards 240/415Y then why not just go with a 230/380Y nominal standard, so that when guys ask what they should do with overseas equipment to adapt it we could just write "Change the cord end" and be done with it ;)
The EU nominal is 230/400 or more often stated the other way 400/230 and 50Hz.
So kwired is right about the frequency issue.
 
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