Is this safe or legal? (Safety experts will love this)

[jxofaltrds]

Please go to this page and see the NEMA receptacles that they offer!!!!!

http://www.steambrite.com/power-joi...-240volt-4wire-20amp-650r-welder-p-14196.html

As I said unsafe.

 

[Curious nerd]

Very good, now how many permits do you get to look at such a device, or much of anything that plugs in but nothing else is associated with the permit? I think the bigger question here is is it safe. It could be argued the branch circuit(s) end at the outlet (receptacle) and NEC doesn't apply to what is plugged in. What maybe could be argued is the appliance supplied by the 240 volt receptacle isn't fed with code compliant branch circuit wiring/methods, and come up with multiple things from that perspective that are in violation. If you are powering a straight 240 volt load you don't need a neutral at all to make that load work, so why should you have a problem with the neutral itself as long as you don't tie the two together from the supply cords making a possible alternate path for the premises wiring neutral(s)? Again I am not condoning the use of the device in the OP, just simply stating there is no need for it to introduce problems with the neutral.

The problems I'm asking about are those mentioned upthread, tripping GFCIs and inductive heating of conduit. If separating the neutrals fixes that then once again I'm missing something critical.

 

[growler]

Things get better and better as you look at other adapters they sell.

Check this out, at first glance it looks OK but then start looking for all that is wrong. What about that box they mounted their adapter in ( if it still had the nails it would be easy to recognize). Why use 25 Amp breakers for a receptacles rated for 20 AMP ( so they won't trip so fast).

http://steam-brite.com/electrica...3a-p-8955.html

 

[GoldDigger]

Things get better and better as you look at other adapters they sell.

Check this out, at first glance it looks OK but then start looking for all that is wrong. What about that box they mounted their adapter in ( if it still had the nails it would be easy to recognize). Why use 25 Amp breakers for a receptacles rated for 20 AMP ( so they won't trip so fast).

Just WOW!
They admit that there is a downside to using the 25A breaker to supply certain pieces of high current equipment:

So far the female receptical and the male plug on the end of the extension cord seam to be the weak link. They do get roasted and have to be changed out about once a year.

To add additional trivia, I suspect that the NM clamp in the Carlon box was never intended for use as strain relief for a portable cord (or power supply cord, of course....)

 

[kwired]

The problems I'm asking about are those mentioned upthread, tripping GFCIs and inductive heating of conduit. If separating the neutrals fixes that then once again I'm missing something critical.

Yes you still have unbalance in any GFCI's that are involved and they will trip, but there will be no current on the neutral if you are not supplying a load that uses a neutral. My point on stray currents in neutral conductors is if you plug one supply cord into receptacle "A" on circuit "A" and you plug the other supply cord into receptacle "B" on circuit "B" and each is a separate two wire branch circuit - if you don't have any connection between neutral "A" and neutral "B" then you will not have any neutral current from other loads on circuit "A" trying to return through said adapter device and back to the panel via neutral "B". That was all I was saying is fixed by not tying the neutrals together in the supply cord, and if you are only feeding a straight 240 volt load you don't need a neutral at the final "outlet" anyway. You still have one conductor of the circuit leaving via one cable, raceway, etc. and possibly the return conductor via another cable, raceway, etc. If you are lucky you may on occasion have both conductors in same raceway or cable, but most users of such a device will not know any better or even care.

 

[Curious nerd]

Thank you.

 

[Rampage_Rick]

This is the most amusing part: "Recieve half price shipping if you pick up at Steam Brite San Antonio, TX"

Ummm, why pay for shipping if it's not being shipped?

 

[GoldDigger]

Must be the "handling" part....

 

[kwired]

This is the most amusing part: "Recieve half price shipping if you pick up at Steam Brite San Antonio, TX"

Ummm, why pay for shipping if it's not being shipped?

If I am going to pay half price on shipping but still have to go somewhere to pick it up, I'd expect to only have to go half way to San Antonio:lol:

 

[FionaZuppa]

This is the most amusing part: "Recieve half price shipping if you pick up at Steam Brite San Antonio, TX"

Ummm, why pay for shipping if it's not being shipped?

i think a mis-type, i think they give you half off shipping if you drive to the store and order it there at the store :lol::lol:

you know, an incentive to come into the store, so you buy more stuff...........

 

[GoldDigger]

More likely they have a warehouse that stocks the stuff and you still web order it but have it shipped to their office/showroom instead?

 

[growler]

I personally like the disclaimer:

Note: User assumes all responsibility on use. It is the users responsibility to check
the inbound voltage, outbound voltage, and total amp draw to verify these are not
going to be overloaded. The user agrees to test the amp draw of any appliance or
machine that they plug into these converters to ensure they are not being overloaded.
Meters are cheap and mistakes are expensive. You can purchase a meter at
http://www.steam-brite.com/voltage-meter-mulitester-p-6259.html
User agrees to hold Steam Brite, its employees, and agents harmless in the event of
any use of said use of converter. The user agrees to not hold SteamBrite and all
employee against any problems that arise out of the use of said converters.
Remember, just because it plugs in does not mean it is OK to use!

They even go farther than that trying to deny any responsibility for use of their products.

They have a 230V volt 30 AMP, "3 prong" adaper that goes directly to a couple of 20 AMP receptacles without any overcurrent protection or even a GFCI to trip once the equipment starts to smoke.

Part of the disclaimer reads:
You our customer ( should use the word sucker) agrees to indemnify Stream Brite Inc. and to hold harmless from and against all claims, cost, liabilities, damages and expenses, including attorney's fees, resulting from personal injury or property damage caused by the product.

I doubt if this was written by a lawyer because you can't get indemnity from personal injury or death just by the use of cheap tricks like this.

What happens when a cleaner uses one of these and burns down a million dollar home and doesn't have insurance? What if someone is seriously injured or killed?

If you could indemnify yourself that easility don't you think everyone would be doing it?

 

[GoldDigger]

If you could indemnify yourself that easility don't you think everyone would be doing it?

Well, just about everyone tries, just in case the injured party does not have a lawyer.

 

[hurk27]

Just like you can't sign off on liability, you can not also make a disclaimer to liability as a friend of mine found out who owned and operated a large skating rink and was sued because he didn't replace some worn carpeting and the person fell and broke their kneecap, he had signs all around the rink and on the receipts stating that the rink is not responsible for injuries "skate at your own risk", his attorney was the one who told him to put the sign's up and add the disclaimer on the receipts even though they didn't mean anything, we found out later it was only to keep those who are unaware of the law so they wouldn't sue, after the news hit our local paper people came out of the woodworks dragging him into court

The sad thing is our local schools were also telling parents that they do not have liability insurance that covers the kids while on school property, they also make all the parents sign a waver of liability and tell them they have to get their own insurance to cover their kids, we got the state involved as all schools do have insurance for this and the parents were just double insuring the kids at the expense of the parents, the state also had to explain to the school board that a parent can not sign off on a child's liability as they do not have that right even if you could, but the bottom line is no one can.

 

[arion]

thats a god idea

thats a god idea

I had to build one of these once (don't ask; it was silly). I set it up with two relays. Each relay coil was driven phase-to-neutral from each source. The contacts switched the OTHER phase. that way, if you lost one phase, both sides would shut off. It also prevented the "live male end" problem.


SceneryDriver

the dropout relays are a good move

 

[mbrooke]

Thanks guys and gals! This thread has been interesting to say the least, a lot of knowledge. Always learning:thumbsup: