al hildenbrand
Senior Member
- Location
- Minnesota
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor, Electrical Consultant, Electrical Engineer
J Box behind mirror
- Thread starter augie47
- Start date
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Hendrix
Senior Member
- Location
- New England
If it's screwed, yes. Glued, no
K8MHZ
Senior Member
- Occupation
- Electrician
I spent longer than that looking for one with an open neutral. It was on that job I learned how to use a circuit tracer.
The mirror was permanently fixed in place and HO had to have someone come out and remove it. I didn't feel it was my job, plus I am sure I would have broken it. (BIG mirror). I flipped the box around so it faced the adjacent room and blanked it off.
If putting boxes behind mirrors is not illegal, it sure should be.
When the tracer indicated a problem behind the mirror I figured I was reading the tracer wrong.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
That's ridiculous! There's a huge-mongous difference between a hidden J-box and a hidden device.
There is no telling how many man hours are spent on "Hide & Seek" GFCI calls. They hide everywhere :grin:
For follow up, the mirror from the OP is approximately 3 ft x 8 ft secured with clips and with 2 GFCI outlets cut-in.
The contractor was on site at inspection and rerouted the romex eliminating the "hidden" box. (There was an open ground that had to be addressed. The reroute took less time than taking the mirror down.)
He conceded it was a bad install but was of the opinion it was not a violation.
Thanks to everyone for their input.
For follow up, the mirror from the OP is approximately 3 ft x 8 ft secured with clips and with 2 GFCI outlets cut-in.
The contractor was on site at inspection and rerouted the romex eliminating the "hidden" box. (There was an open ground that had to be addressed. The reroute took less time than taking the mirror down.)
He conceded it was a bad install but was of the opinion it was not a violation.
Thanks to everyone for their input.
jaylectricity
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
- Occupation
- licensed journeyman electrician
I just want to address this because I've seen it on other forums. There are many members here. Some of whom visit every day and others who visit occasionally or in spurts.
I've seen the mistake you made a number of times on a number of debates. Go back to that other thread and try to match up users in that thread and their opinion with the users in this thread and their opinions.
Then tell me if a single person in that thread that had a problem with a plug behind an appliance is in this thread claiming that covering up a box with a cabinet or mirror is good to go.
I'll bet you won't find a single one.
Way back when I was an apprentice starting out, we looked for a day and a half for a problem causing a dead ckt.We finally cut a hole to re-feed it and closed a door to make some room to work, and found a 2 space breaker with one tripped.I have never forgotten that lesson.No idea if the boss collected on that one.
e57
Senior Member
- Location
- San Francisco, CA
Well - if you want it that way.... I could assume there might be something behind that access panel - as it clearly is one....So, if screws are the determining fact as far as being a permanent finish and it would mean removing part of the building, then any j boxes above the "screwed" in place access panel below are inaccessible right?
Roger
Unless you laser etch the glass mirror to say - "Hey look at me.... I have electrical J-boxes back here!" I would - and most would not ever think to look behind a mirror and chance paying for something both fragile and expensive - not to mention unwieldy....
If the code said to put lettering in a certain font, size and color as signage to look for hidden itmes then maybe there would be more things hidden - but as it stands - many of us are reluctant to hide stuff where it will never be found....
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And if I decided to put these side by side to cover the entire ceiling how would you know which one to remove?
I agree but, even if the mirror is hung with clips or wires the box can still be there
When going into an attic, do you automatically know exactly where all the boxes are in the blown in insulation or do you have to sometimes search around to find them?
I would suggest putting an as-built in the panel cover but that is only my suggestion, it is not a code requirement.
Roger
TOOL_5150
Senior Member
- Location
- bay area, ca
Just tonight I went on a call... "a few outlets dont work" I got to the house, had the lady show me what didnt work - all 3 bathrooms. :grin: awesome, this will be easy. I looked in each bathroom, the GFCI wasnt in any of them - was expecting it to be in the master. I go back out to the panel, no GFCI breaker. So I search in the garage. Saw a sprinkler timer... followed its cord, and it went behind a shoe rack. Ill be darned - a GFCI! and of course, it was tripped. Reset it, it held, and reported that the problem was solved. Fixed a pair of broken switches and that was it - another happy customer.
The lady asks "how did you know that was there"... I just replied "Im paid the big bucks to know" and laughed. She was happy, and i got some more work out of it as well, awesome
~Matt
hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
I always wonder what made it trip? Is there a problem somewhere that I'm not aware of? Will it continue to be a problem for the homeowner?
TOOL_5150
Senior Member
- Location
- bay area, ca
yeah I did wonder that - but now that the homeowner knowes where it is, they can reset it. Its a poorly designed circuit- goes from panel to GFCI then to 3 bathrooms and an outdoor light.
If it gives them too much more problems, Ill meg the circuit and see where its gone bad. Its unfortunate they lived this way for a couple months. When I was getting ready to leave I found out they were refered to me by a past customer - thats always a great feeling. Makes you really want to keep on doing your very best.
~Matt
hardworkingstiff
Senior Member
- Location
- Wilmington, NC
That will keep you working/eating when others are trying to come up with better ads or marketing gimicks to get customers.
I strive for my customers to agree with "I'm not the best electrician out there, but it would be difficult to find a better one", and "He's not the cheapest electrician out there, but he's worth the extra money".
macmikeman
Senior Member
- Location
- Planet macmikeman
Just tonight I went on a call... "a few outlets dont work" I got to the house, had the lady show me what didnt work - all 3 bathrooms. :grin: awesome, this will be easy. I looked in each bathroom, the GFCI wasnt in any of them - was expecting it to be in the master. I go back out to the panel, no GFCI breaker. So I search in the garage. Saw a sprinkler timer... followed its cord, and it went behind a shoe rack. Ill be darned - a GFCI! and of course, it was tripped. Reset it, it held, and reported that the problem was solved. Fixed a pair of broken switches and that was it - another happy customer.
The lady asks "how did you know that was there"... I just replied "Im paid the big bucks to know" and laughed. She was happy, and i got some more work out of it as well, awesome
~Matt
Matt, at this discovery I would have tried to sell her on : make each oultet in that series a gfi outlet, not downstream fed from any other gfi in the series, but rather all wiring pigtailed and placed into line side of each gfi outlet. That way when she trips any gfi- only that one would be affected.
Jim W in Tampa
Senior Member
- Location
- Tampa Florida
Matt, at this discovery I would have tried to sell her on : make each oultet in that series a gfi outlet, not downstream fed from any other gfi in the series, but rather all wiring pigtailed and placed into line side of each gfi outlet. That way when she trips any gfi- only that one would be affected.
That is how most do it in commercial work. Problem is in residential most are done by low bid and usually no specs to demand it. And very few custom home buyers know enough about electric to require it.
LarryFine
Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
- Location
- Henrico County, VA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
Sometimes, they're even in plain sight.
A few years ago, we responded to what sounded like a complete circuit out: living room, front outside, and 1-1/2 bedrooms without ceiling lighst or receptacles.
I started at the panel, went to the bedrooms next, and, to make a long story short, I found three (!) GFCI receptacles wired feed-through on this circuit, all tripped.
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