kitchen hood

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jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
It is not a matter of accepting or not accepting the "no other outlets" notion. When there is a failure to communicate, it doesn't help to say the same thing again and again. The thing to do is to try to figure out what the differences in interpretation are, then figure out why they are different.

In this instance, it seemed to me a matter of determining what is, and what is not an SABC. I think everyone (Mike included) understands and agrees that an SABC can have no outlets other than the ones that are in the list. The difference between what you have been saying, and what Mike has been saying, is related to whether a particular circuit is, or is not, an SABC. I am guessing that some (perhaps Mike) have started with the notion that if you have a circuit served by a 20 amp breaker, and with wires that go into the kitchen, that circuit is an SABC. I do not agree with that notion. I think that as soon as you connect the first countertop receptacle to a circuit, that act by itself causes the circuit to become an SABC. Thereafter, you cannot add any outlets that are not on the list. In my example, I have a circuit that is 20 amps and that is in the kitchen, but I do not call it an SABC because the outlet it serves is not on the list (being too high off the floor).

Only thing that I would change is could be a SABC not automatically one per your explaination of what others may think.

I take the stance that anyone is 'allowed' to do something unless it is specifically prohibited. Not the attitude that you need permission to do something.
While at times it seems that I want the code 'my' way it is just the opposite. I want to limit AHJ interpretations (inference). ;)

I also believe that an AHJ has to be able to explain why he is enforcing the code the way that he does.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
[Kwired, te 20" I was referring to was for receptacles on the wall behind / above the counters. I apologize for not being clear on that point. You are correct regarding the 5-1/2'ft. height limit for the 'usual' required receptacles.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
JXO, the NEC most certainly does define "Small appliance branch circuit." Look at 210.11(C)(1). OK, I'll admit that it's not a very good definition, as it includes the defined term in the definition. Sort of like saying 'running shoes' are shoes you run in; that's about as clear as mud.

210.11(C)(1) says "two or more 20-ampere small appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B)"

Mind you, the code is silent as to what is a 'small appliance,' and nowhere does the code say that only small appliances can be plugged into them. One can easily, and legally, plug a table lamp into one, or a night light, or even their tougue. :D

In my second post to this thread, I emphasized a few words;I emphasized 20 amp because if the circuit is not a 20-amp circuit, it does not meet the requirements of 210.11. You could run a dedicated 15-amp circuit to every receptacle, and place a receptacle in every stud bay, and still not meet the requirement, because they would not be 20-amp circuits.
(Sure, you'd have plenty of power, but the code panel decided to play designer.)

Now, let's look at 210.52(B):
This section, labled "Small Appliances," is somewhat misleading, as it has little to do with 'small appliances.' Instead, plenty of other specifications apply.
For starters, please note that there are several rooms, besides the kitchen, where you are required to have receptacles served by an SABC. Note I said 'to have receptacles.' I did not say 'to have all receptacles.' We'll return to that point in a moment.
The rooms, apart from the kitchen, where you need SABC's, include dining rooms, breakfast nooks, and pantries. Someone asked where you might want additional SABC's if not to serve (say) the microwave; Let me give an example: since the counters must be served by at least two SABC's (see 210.53(C)(3)), one might consider it easier to just put the dining room on its' own 20-amp circuit.

Since 210.52(B)(2) says the SABC's can serve only the required receptacles ("no other outlets"), we need to ask what receptacles are required to be on an SABC. Let's look at that.
210.51(B)(1) says the SABC's shall serve all wall and floor receptacles required by 210.52(A). These are the 'usual' receptacles spaced along the walls. The SABC's are also to serve the receptacles required for the countertops by 210.52(C).

Did somone mention appliance garages? 210.52(C)(5) tells us that receptacles mounted in appliance garages shall not be considered as among the required receptacles. You are forbidden to supply an appliance garace from an SABC. You can run a 20-amp circuit to the appliance garage, and all the appliances may be small, but the circuit is not an SABC- by definition.

That's an important point, because it establishes that there can be receptacles in a kitchen that cannot be served by an SABC. Those would be receptacles in addition to required receptacles. For example, there are no receptacles required on the wall more than 20" above the counter; but you can still have one there. You just can't feed it from an SABC.

Since our range hood is almost certain to be outside the areas served by the SABC's, this means that their power cannot come from an SABC. You may put in a dedicated 20-amp circuit, but it won't ba an SABC.

The same applies for a microwave mounted in a cabinet; you can power it, just not from an SABC. The SABC's are for the receptacles serving the countertop, not the cabinetry (though I wouldn't lose sleep over a cord dropping down from a cabinet to a counter receptacle!)

As an aside ... is everyone beginning to see why I like dedicated kitchen-area sub-panels? That, of course, is a design issue.
 

texie

Senior Member
Location
Fort Collins, Colorado
Occupation
Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
JXO, the NEC most certainly does define "Small appliance branch circuit." Look at 210.11(C)(1). OK, I'll admit that it's not a very good definition, as it includes the defined term in the definition. Sort of like saying 'running shoes' are shoes you run in; that's about as clear as mud.

210.11(C)(1) says "two or more 20-ampere small appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B)"

Mind you, the code is silent as to what is a 'small appliance,' and nowhere does the code say that only small appliances can be plugged into them. One can easily, and legally, plug a table lamp into one, or a night light, or even their tougue. :D

In my second post to this thread, I emphasized a few words;I emphasized 20 amp because if the circuit is not a 20-amp circuit, it does not meet the requirements of 210.11. You could run a dedicated 15-amp circuit to every receptacle, and place a receptacle in every stud bay, and still not meet the requirement, because they would not be 20-amp circuits.
(Sure, you'd have plenty of power, but the code panel decided to play designer.)

Now, let's look at 210.52(B):
This section, labled "Small Appliances," is somewhat misleading, as it has little to do with 'small appliances.' Instead, plenty of other specifications apply.
For starters, please note that there are several rooms, besides the kitchen, where you are required to have receptacles served by an SABC. Note I said 'to have receptacles.' I did not say 'to have all receptacles.' We'll return to that point in a moment.
The rooms, apart from the kitchen, where you need SABC's, include dining rooms, breakfast nooks, and pantries. Someone asked where you might want additional SABC's if not to serve (say) the microwave; Let me give an example: since the counters must be served by at least two SABC's (see 210.53(C)(3)), one might consider it easier to just put the dining room on its' own 20-amp circuit.

Since 210.52(B)(2) says the SABC's can serve only the required receptacles ("no other outlets"), we need to ask what receptacles are required to be on an SABC. Let's look at that.
210.51(B)(1) says the SABC's shall serve all wall and floor receptacles required by 210.52(A). These are the 'usual' receptacles spaced along the walls. The SABC's are also to serve the receptacles required for the countertops by 210.52(C).

Did somone mention appliance garages? 210.52(C)(5) tells us that receptacles mounted in appliance garages shall not be considered as among the required receptacles. You are forbidden to supply an appliance garace from an SABC. You can run a 20-amp circuit to the appliance garage, and all the appliances may be small, but the circuit is not an SABC- by definition.

That's an important point, because it establishes that there can be receptacles in a kitchen that cannot be served by an SABC. Those would be receptacles in addition to required receptacles. For example, there are no receptacles required on the wall more than 20" above the counter; but you can still have one there. You just can't feed it from an SABC.

Since our range hood is almost certain to be outside the areas served by the SABC's, this means that their power cannot come from an SABC. You may put in a dedicated 20-amp circuit, but it won't ba an SABC.

The same applies for a microwave mounted in a cabinet; you can power it, just not from an SABC. The SABC's are for the receptacles serving the countertop, not the cabinetry (though I wouldn't lose sleep over a cord dropping down from a cabinet to a counter receptacle!)

As an aside ... is everyone beginning to see why I like dedicated kitchen-area sub-panels? That, of course, is a design issue.

OK, I think you have made a good argument. Also I have to admit that I never noticed that appliance garages are specically mentioned in 210.52(C)(5). I do think it is wise to run a 20 amp circuit to the appliance garage, just don't call it a SABC.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
JXO, the NEC most certainly does define "Small appliance branch circuit." Look at 210.11(C)(1).
OK, I'll admit that it's not a very good definition, as it includes the defined term in the definition. Sort of like saying 'running shoes' are shoes you run in; that's about as clear as mud.

.

It is most certainly does NOT define SABC. Please see others opinions. Imply, infer, guess or what ever. SABC is never defined.

Now you say that it is "most certainly does define" but them you say "not a very good definition". Come on! It is clear or it is not!
By your own admission it is not 'clear'.

I also like your shoe analogy. You made my point. TY! :cool:

Decide on which side of the "mud" you choose to stand.

LOL I have "looked" at 210.11(C)(1) quite often during this debate. ;)

As others have tried to explain argue your point. Just do not say that it is in the Electrical Bible!

In this forum if you tell someone that they are wrong/incorrect/nuts/whatever you better be darn able to give a logical explaination.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
OK, I think you have made a good argument. Also I have to admit that I never noticed that appliance garages are specically mentioned in 210.52(C)(5). I do think it is wise to run a 20 amp circuit to the appliance garage, just don't call it a SABC.

You CAN put it on the counter circuit. It just does not 'count' for the spacing requirement!

It's implied! Sorry! :D
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
IMO I think this was just over thought and and words were ignored, Mike went on to admit that a range hood could in fact be installed on a SABC, I corrected that statement and here we are 50 posts later.... Nothing new I suppose, but I just deem it useless.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
IMO I think this was just over thought and and words were ignored, Mike went on to admit that a range hood could in fact be installed on a SABC, I corrected that statement and here we are 50 posts later.... Nothing new I suppose, but I just deem it useless.

Wait you just changed. It can not be on the required SABC circuits.:happysad:

PS Charlie says that it can not be installed on ANY SABC! Did I understand you correctly Charlie?
 
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Mind you, the code is silent as to what is a 'small appliance,' and nowhere does the code say that only small appliances can be plugged into them. One can easily, and legally, plug a table lamp into one, or a night light, or even their tougue. :D
Harder to put your tongue into the now required TR receptacles;)

As an aside ... is everyone beginning to see why I like dedicated kitchen-area sub-panels? That, of course, is a design issue.
In some cases it may be a good thing. There is the occasional apartment kitchen where one has a hard time determining where to locate a second receptacle on a second SABC that will serve a countertop because there is only enough counter to otherwise only require one receptacle.

Wait you just changed. It can not be on the required SABC circuits.:happysad:

PS Charlie says that it can not be installed on ANY SABC! Did I understand you correctly Charlie?

Which SABC is required? Pick any two you want and call them required? I don't think that is the way it works. The two (or more) SABC's all must follow same rules, there is just a minimum of two circuits required, and at least two circuits have to feed at least one countertop receptacle each.
 

jxofaltrds

Inspector Mike®
Location
Mike P. Columbus Ohio
Occupation
ESI, PI, RBO
Which SABC is required? Pick any two you want and call them required? I don't think that is the way it works. The two (or more) SABC's all must follow same rules, there is just a minimum of two circuits required, and at least two circuits have to feed at least one countertop receptacle each.

Nope.

No receptacles required.

I can take the two required circuits and land/terminate them in an outlet. Nothing has to be 'fed'.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Nope.

No receptacles required.

I can take the two required circuits and land/terminate them in an outlet. Nothing has to be 'fed'.

Now that is a topic for another thread, we have had debates here before whether or not a lighting outlet needs to have a luminaire, this is kind of no different, and I could see it possibly being one of those debates with no clear winner either.
 

renosteinke

Senior Member
Location
NE Arkansas
Maybe we just need to re-write 210 to read:

210: Required Receptacles and other outlets:
Do any damn thing you want. Not enough? Too many? That's your problem. Needs of the final customer? Who Cares about them?

:D
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
JXO, the NEC most certainly does define "Small appliance branch circuit." Look at 210.11(C)(1).
It is most certainly does NOT define SABC. Please see others opinions. Imply, infer, guess or whatever. SABC is never defined.
It most certainly does define an SABC. There is nothing anywhere that states that a word or phrase cannot be ?defined? unless it sits under an article that has the title, ?definitions.? 210.11(C)(1) is what calls the SABC into existence. It tells us that there is such a thing as an SABC, and it tells us what it is, and it tells us where to look for related rules. The term SABC is not used before that article, and that article is cited by later articles. 210.11(C)(1) establishes the definition of SABC.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
You are forbidden to supply an appliance garage from an SABC. You can run a 20-amp circuit to the appliance garage, and all the appliances may be small, but the circuit is not an SABC- by definition.
I agree with this viewpoint. Again, let me say that I am merely interpreting the words, as written. I don?t think it a bad design to allow the receptacle within the appliance garage to be on the same circuit as the countertop receptacles. I just don?t think it meets the language of the code.
 

charlie b

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Lockport, IL
Occupation
Retired Electrical Engineer
I think that as soon as you connect the first countertop receptacle to a circuit, that act by itself causes the circuit to become an SABC.
Only thing that I would change is could be a SABC not automatically one . . . .
And I don?t agree. There is no ?could? about it. If a circuit supplies a kitchen countertop receptacle (or one of the others on ?the list?), then that circuit IS an SABC. Now you need to see if it meets the code requirements for an SABC (i.e., circuit is rated at 20 amps and serves no outlets that are not on ?the list?).
 

stickboy1375

Senior Member
Location
Litchfield, CT
Mike, so tell us, what is your objective in this thread? Are you willing to learn something or just argue the situation? You do this on a lot of threads. It's almost trollish.
 
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