Kitchen SABC

[charlie b]

In my neck of the woods, this would be a kitchen, at least for the purpose of establishing GFCI requirements. As to the other requirements for kitchens (e.g., minimum of two SABCs), it is not so clear. The Washington Administrative Code has this to say,

For the purposes of NEC 210.8(B), kitchen means any area where utensils, dishes, etc., are cleaned or where food or beverages are prepared or cooked.

 

[jxofaltrds]

I don't believe the NEC is subsection of the building code in my area. There are both standards that have been adopted and when using the NEC you would use NEC definitions if they are provided.

= & = & =

iwire ( and others ),

In this application, which standard [ In Your Opinion ] is the "most restrictive" ?

Also, ...typically the IBC or the IRC is the "Master Code", and the other codes are
the "Slave Codes"........The IBC & the IRC tells one what the area \ space \ structure
is and what is the intended use.......The NEC & the other applicable codes tells one
how to construct that particular use.

= & = & =

Looks like chapter 27 to me?

http://www.mass.gov/eopss/consumer-prot-and-bus-lic/license-type/csl/8th-edition-base-code.html

 

[GoldDigger]

In my neck of the woods, this would be a kitchen, at least for the purpose of establishing GFCI requirements. As to the other requirements for kitchens (e.g., minimum of two SABCs), it is not so clear. The Washington Administrative Code has this to say,

That provision has the practical effect, in commercial kitchens, of making a totally separate (walls and doorway) scullery where the dishes are scraped and washed, also a kitchen space for wiring purposes. Neither the NEC nor the IBC do that on their own.
That case is not really applicable to most residences (except maybe McMansions.)

 

[jumper]

Just for grins and giggles lets see what Mr. Webster says a kitchen is:

kitch?en
noun \?ki-ch?n\

: a room in which food is cooked
Full Definition of KITCHEN
1
: a place (as a room) with cooking facilities

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kitchen

Seems reasonable to me.:angel:

 

[jxofaltrds]

Just for grins and giggles lets see what Mr. Webster says a kitchen is:



http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/kitchen

Seems reasonable to me.:angel:

Forgot #2

2: the personnel that prepares, cooks, and serves food

 

[north star]

= & = & =


Unfortunately, while the definitions and guidance in the IRC & IBC sometimes
do not make sense, ...they ARE what is stated, adopted and are enforceable in
the courts.........They can be changed at any time.......All it takes is for active
participation and involvement from the various Code Committee members, and
in this case, ...not the Code Making Panels.

The IRC and the IBC still govern !

Soooooooooooo, ...which of you wants to sign up to change the IRC or IBC ?


= & = & =

 

[jumper]

Forgot #2

2: the personnel that prepares, cooks, and serves food

Uh Mike, them folks are gonna need a place that fits definition #1 to carry out them there duties.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Kitchen. An area with a sink and permanent provisions for
food preparation and cooking.

Please tell me where "cooking" requires "heating"?

cook?ing

• the practice or skill of preparing food by combining, mixing, and heating ingredients.
  [COLOR=#878787 !important]"she first became interested in cooking at the age of 17"[/COLOR]
  
  
  • food that has been prepared in a particular way.
    [COLOR=#878787 !important]"authentic Italian cooking"[/COLOR]
    

    synonyms:

    cuisine, cookery, baking; More

    
    
    
    
  • suitable for or used in cooking.
    [COLOR=#878787 !important]modifier noun: cooking[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#878787 !important]"cooking oil"[/COLOR]
    
    
  
  
  
  

 

[iwire]

This is truly one of the most off the wall threads I have seen in a while.:roll:

When applying NEC sections you use NEC definitions when they are provided.

You do not look for the most restrictive other code section you can find and try to force fit it into the NEC.

 

[iwire]

= & = & =


Unfortunately, while the definitions and guidance in the IRC & IBC sometimes
do not make sense, ...they ARE what is stated, adopted and are enforceable in
the courts.........They can be changed at any time.......All it takes is for active
participation and involvement from the various Code Committee members, and
in this case, ...not the Code Making Panels.

The IRC and the IBC still govern !

Soooooooooooo, ...which of you wants to sign up to change the IRC or IBC ?


= & = & =

I don't have to change a frigging thing, all I have to do is apply the correct definition for the application.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Uh Mike, them folks are gonna need a place that fits definition #1 to carry out them there duties.

cook?ing

• the practice or skill of preparing food by combining, mixing, and heating ingredients.
  [COLOR=#878787 !important]"she first became interested in cooking at the age of 17"[/COLOR]
  
  
  • food that has been prepared in a particular way.
    [COLOR=#878787 !important]"authentic Italian cooking"[/COLOR]
    

    synonyms:

    cuisine, cookery, baking; More

    
    
    
    
  • suitable for or used in cooking.
    [COLOR=#878787 !important]modifier noun: cooking[/COLOR]
    [COLOR=#878787 !important]"cooking oil"[/COLOR]
    
    
  
  
  
  

Wonder if this is what we look like to the outside world?

 

[jumper]

= & = & =


Unfortunately, while the definitions and guidance in the IRC & IBC sometimes
do not make sense, ...they ARE what is stated, adopted and are enforceable in
the courts.........They can be changed at any time.......All it takes is for active
participation and involvement from the various Code Committee members, and
in this case, ...not the Code Making Panels.

The IRC and the IBC still govern !

Soooooooooooo, ...which of you wants to sign up to change the IRC or IBC ?


= & = & =

I don't need no darn gubmint or committee making people trying to tell me what a kitchen is.

Uncle Jed says that iffin the area in a house that 'sposed to be a kitchen ain't got all the fancy fixtures Granny Mae needs to whip up a possum pie, a mess of greens, and a pile of pone to feed Jethro and Ellie Mae's critters, it ain't a real kitchen.:happyyes:

Y'all come back now, ya hear.

 

[north star]

= & = & =

"I don't have to change a frigging thing, all I have to do is apply the correct definition for the application."

I agree completely !........In this application it just happens to be from the IRC, Chapter 2 - Definitions
that governs the installation of a food preparation area. :happyyes:


= & = & =

 

[kwired]

Kitchen. An area with a sink and permanent provisions for
food preparation and cooking.

Please tell me where "cooking" requires "heating"?

Cooking is what the cook does.

cooking adjective

: suitable for or used in cooking : involving or having to do with cooking

I have prepared things to eat in places that people would generally not call a kitchen, including what is pictured below as well as more primitive methods.

If opening a can of beans and eating them directly from the can - is the act of opening the can called cooking?

if he had this stored in a cabinet does he have a kitchen or not?

View attachment 11083

Does that meet the "permanent provisions for cooking" wording?

 

[david]

= & = & =

david,

Respectfully, but before you apply the standards of Ch. 35, ...wouldn't you want
to know exactly how the space \ area is defined, ...what the Occupancy is ?
Ch. 2 - Definitions provides a clear definition of how the space \ area is, or will
be used. :blink:

= & = & =

= & = & =


I agree completely !........In this application it just happens to be from the IRC, Chapter 2 - Definitions
that governs the installation of a food preparation area. :happyyes:


= & = & =

I cannot see how you are coming to the conclusion that the definition in chapter 2 governs chapter 35 when the text in chapter 35 says the exact opposite
SECTION E3501
GENERAL
E3501.1 Scope. This chapter contains definitions that shall
apply only to the electrical requirements of Chapters 34
through 43.

Unless otherwise expressly stated, the following
terms shall, for the purpose of this code, have the meanings
indicated in this chapter.

Words used in the present tense
include the future; the singular number includes the plural and
the plural the singular.

Where terms are not defined in this section
and are defined in Section R202 of this code, such terms
shall have the meanings ascribed to them in that section.

Where
terms are not defined in these sections, they shall have their
ordinarily accepted meanings or such as the context implies.

 

[GoldDigger]

...or such as the context implies.

Now there is a loophole big enough for both the Titanic and the iceberg....

 

[david]

Now there is a loophole big enough for both the Titanic and the iceberg....

The NEC says basically the same thing if a word is not defined than use the ordinary means of applying a definition to a word.

The reason the IRC is allowing the definitions in these section to be used for the electrical provisions is because the NFPA defined these terms in these sections not the International Code Counsel .

The only way to correctly apply the electrical code provisions is to apply the definitions given in electrical sections. That is what the scope directs you to do.

 

[iwire]

The NEC says basically the same thing if a word is not defined than use the ordinary means of applying a definition to a word.

The reason the IRC is allowing the definitions in these section to be used for the electrical provisions is because the NFPA defined these terms in these sections not the International Code Counsel .

The only way to correctly apply the electrical code provisions is to apply the definitions given in electrical sections. That is what the scope directs you to do.

Thank you.

 

[iwire]

= & = & =


I agree completely !........In this application it just happens to be from the IRC, Chapter 2 - Definitions
that governs the installation of a food preparation area. :happyyes:


= & = & =

:happyno:

No, the IRC does not define what a kitchen is when it comes to applying the NEC.

 

[jxofaltrds]

The problem is that electrical guys think that the NEC is the Bible instead of one of the books included/contained within it.

That's like saying the CBO (Chief Building Official) has to bow down to the E(S)I (Electrical (Safety) Inspector).

Really?