Kitchen SABC

[Canton]

This is truly one of the most off the wall threads I have seen in a while.:roll:

When applying NEC sections you use NEC definitions when they are provided.

You do not look for the most restrictive other code section you can find and try to force fit it into the NEC.

Totally Agree! I am amazed at how far someone will go to show their opinion on a subject and try to justify it.....ridiculous sometimes. :huh:

The NEC 2011 is the bible for this jurisdiction (and all where I live) for Electrical Installations. The IRC or any other code or reference has no bearing or authority on any electrical installation here.

So....NEC definition of a Kitchen = "An area with a sink (check) and permanent provisions for food preparation (check) and permanent provisions for cooking" (No Check). A plug in hot plate or anything else you can think of does not constitute permanent....because its not going in...so its not a kitchen. Pretty strait forward.

Websters Definition of Cooking = "to prepare (food) for eating especially by using heat"....no source of heat in that kitchen.

Oya...I called two jurisdiction in MD to see what their interpretation of a Kitchen was...(Montgomery County and PG County)...both said in order for an installation to be considered a kitchen it would have to contain a permanent appliance for cooking. (Range, Oven, stove etc.) A microwave did not count. Their reasoning among other things, when the home sells someone could call a wet bar in a basement with counter space, sink, and refrigerator a kitchen. I totally agree with that.

Case Closed, Court is adjourned........and i wish the thread was closed also.........

 

[Canton]

The problem is that electrical guys think that the NEC is the Bible instead of one of the books included/contained within it.

That's like saying the CBO (Chief Building Official) has to bow down to the E(S)I (Electrical (Safety) Inspector).

Really?

???????? When we do an Electrical Installation the NEC is the Bible that governs our installation.....nothing else matters. I pass or fail my electrical installation based on if it was installed to that code (with a few local amendments). The same with all the Jurisdiction in MD, VA, DC and WVA.....not sure whats going on in OH...but I don't have any plans of going there :blink:

 

[jumper]

???????? When we do an Electrical Installation the NEC is the Bible that governs our installation.....nothing else matters. I pass or fail my electrical installation based on if it was installed to that code (with a few local amendments). The same with all the Jurisdiction in MD, VA, DC and WVA.....not sure whats going on in OH...but I don't have any plans of going there :blink:

Canton, you should be aware that VA adopts the IRC, not the NEC, for residential. The state amendments for residential are also based on the IRC.

I lived outside Richmond for almost 11 years.

 

[Canton]

Canton, you should be aware that VA adopts the IRC, not the NEC, for residential. The state amendments for residential are also based on the IRC.

I lived outside Richmond for almost 11 years.

True....with local amendments

I have not done Residential in Years in VA. I just went to DPOR's home page and a couple of Local Counties, interesting

 

[Canton]

I lived outside Richmond for almost 11 years.

I do miss VA sometimes. Only need (2) Licenses there as compared to the (20) to (30) in MD.....

 

[electricalist]

If I may know what type work was the permit . Just curious if it was for kitchenette renovation

 

[jumper]

I do miss VA sometimes. Only need (2) Licenses there as compared to the (20) to (30) in MD.....

Yeah, VA is nice and simple whereas MD is a bit nightmare for licensing, code adoption, and amendments.

 

[electricalist]

I think the code would call what he has a dining or nook therefore rewuiring 20 amp specifically for those areas . Dining for the heating and preparing of food ysing non permanent cooking equip

 

[Canton]

If I may know what type work was the permit . Just curious if it was for kitchenette renovation

It was for receptacles and lights, standard electrical permit. You apply / pay on a per item quantity. Then there was a separate plumbing permit applied for by the plumber for the sink/ bathroom. No building permit because no walls were constructed or moved. The bathroom was right next to it and is being remodeled at the same time.

I do not do very much residential, but this was pretty straight forward

 

[jumper]

I think the code would call what he has a dining or nook therefore rewuiring 20 amp specifically for those areas . Dining for the heating and preparing of food ysing non permanent cooking equip

Personally, I see what the OP has is basically a wet bar in a basement IMO.

 

[electricalist]

On a custom house I worked on years ago an employer got into it with the city over formal dining and dining and its requirements. After they explained what I previously posted . He was yelling does it look like a dining room ? They laughed and said who I just inspect it the way the plans show it.

 

[iwire]

The problem is that electrical guys think that the NEC is the Bible instead of one of the books included/contained within it.

Mike, that is not the case at all.

The problem is some inspectors are trying to blend codes that they should not.

 

[david]

The problem is that electrical guys think that the NEC is the Bible instead of one of the books included/contained within it.

That's like saying the CBO (Chief Building Official) has to bow down to the E(S)I (Electrical (Safety) Inspector).

Really?

Mike, that is not the case at all.

The problem is some inspectors are trying to blend codes that they should not.

Their seems to be an unwillingness to recognize that the electrical provisions in the IRC are an NFPA document within the international Residential Code.
I am not sure if it was excepted that 3501.1 directs the user of that code to the definitions with-in that section when applying that code.
The chapter 2 definition applies to all other sections, in other words the definitions in chapter 35 must be used in that section but cannot be applied to any other sections in the IRC. If this approach is used since both documents are NFPA there is no conflict between codes at least on this subject.

 

[edlee]

Arguable. The NEC defines kitchen in article 100, as follows:

That means to me that as that word is used in later articles, that is the definition that must be used.
If the NEC is adopted by reference through adopting the IRC, then you might be able to argue that the IRC definition should be applied to both. But I do not see any fundamental conflict between the provisions of the NEC about requirements for kitchens and the IRC provisions for kitchens.
As a result, the concept of "scope", familiar to programmers, should be applied. Within the NEC, the NEC's definition holds. When you leave the NEC, the IRC definition comes back into play.

Anyway, the inspector did not see it as a kitchen.
Oh, and by the way, I am pretty sure that the rental codes require a provision for cooking food, not just preparing it, to make a unit habitable. Whether that is done just by requiring a "kitchen" or by listing specific functions that must be supported, I do not know.

Regarding appliances a refrigerator and stove are required in MA by housing code. Countertop cooking or microwave does not fill the bill.

 

[lakee911]

What inspector actually looks at anything well enough to determine what is wired where? How will he know if it has X dedicated appliance circuits and Y SABCs? Every inspector I've had on a job was ready to sign the paper as soon as he set his first foot down out of the truck.

 

[jxofaltrds]

What inspector actually looks at anything well enough to determine what is wired where? How will he know if it has X dedicated appliance circuits and Y SABCs? Every inspector I've had on a job was ready to sign the paper as soon as he set his first foot down out of the truck.

Don't let be known. LOL

You should have posted that yesterday I could have told them that last night!

 

[electricalist]

I ve only had 3 ask to see the approved plans. 1 in arizona. He gave me a red tag with code article # . Didnt say a thing.1 in plano tx. Doing a planet burrito . The pages we weren't using were taped to a new countertop or floor. He ripped them up then threw them down then a red tag . EC must be present for reinsp.1 in plano. Service change from together back to seperated. Wanted complete drawings . We had bosses chicken scratch. How funny. Made up do all fault curents and labeling on both bldge