Manufacturer's Instructions

[infinity]

I was looking at refrigerators dimensions and I saw this:

Electrical: A 115-volt, 60-Hz, AC-only, 15- or 20-amp fused, grounded electrical supply is required. It is recommended that a separate circuit serving only your refrigerator be provided. Use an outlet that cannot be turned off by a switch. Do not use an extension cord.

How can we get to a point where manufacturers will be required to provide accurate instructions with their products? Does anyone think that they really require fuses for a refrigerator circuit?

 

[jim dungar]

I was looking at refrigerators dimensions and I saw this:

How can we get to a point where manufacturers will be required to provide accurate instructions with their products? Does anyone think that they really require fuses for a refrigerator circuit?

I blame It on the lack of technical writers and translators.
I wonder how badly our instructions are translated into other languages. After all look at the issues we have just between English variations.

Poorly applied AI will only make it worse.

 

[retirede]

I know it’s a stretch, but since the instructions call for a “fused electrical supply”, the primary fuses out on pole met that.

 

[kwired]

I blame It on the lack of technical writers and translators.
I wonder how badly our instructions are translated into other languages. After all look at the issues we have just between English variations.

Poorly applied AI will only make it worse.

Doesn't many the devices in European countries contain fuses? This likely adds confusion for some those technical writers and translators as well as simply not knowing codes in different locations.

My other thought though is if a product for market in North America comes with a 5-15 plug already on the supply cord - it's going to get plugged into any receptacle it will fit in without any other thoughts in nearly all cases. A few additional cases it will get plugged into a receptacle it can be modified (like cut off the EGC pin) or use some sort of adapter to utilize, and there are some that know they are "cheating" and others that don't consider that to be wrong at all.

 

[infinity]

There needs to be some accountability for the dopes who write these instruction manuals. Maybe the listing agency should require that besides the product actually working safely the instructions are required to be accurate.

 

[electrofelon]

There needs to be some accountability for the dopes who write these instruction manuals. Maybe the listing agency should require that besides the product actually working safely the instructions are required to be accurate.

I agree "follow the instructions"requirement needs to be a bit more carefully crafted. Of course there is the argument that you only have to following the instructions included with the "listing and labeling" (whatever that is) which maybe is different than what the general consumer destructions say?

 

[infinity]

I agree "follow the instructions"requirement needs to be a bit more carefully crafted. Of course there is the argument that you only have to following the instructions included with the "listing and labeling" (whatever that is) which maybe is different than what the general consumer destructions say?

I think that any inspector who reads the instruction manual that came with the appliance is going to want to enforce whatever is written in the instruction manual. The whole "part of the listing argument" is weak because who is going to actually go and look that up.

 

[electrofelon]

I think that any inspector who reads the instruction manual that came with the appliance is going to want to enforce whatever is written in the instruction manual. The whole "part of the listing argument" is weak because who is going to actually go and look that up.

Part of the listing process should be a document that is included with the product that is approved by the listing agency, and clearly marked as such. The manufacturer can include some poorly translated BS consumer instructions if they want , but they would not be required to be followed.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

There needs to be some accountability for the dopes who write these instruction manuals. Maybe the listing agency should require that besides the product actually working safely the instructions are required to be accurate.

UL absolutely insists that they do a 100% review of the instructions for all of the products that they list, but based on a lot of instructions I have seen, they don't actually review them. Maybe they look at them, but no review for technical accuracy.

 

[infinity]

Part of the listing process should be a document that is included with the product that is approved by the listing agency, and clearly marked as such. The manufacturer can include some poorly translated BS consumer instructions if they want , but they would not be required to be followed.

I agree which is what I was saying in post #5. You want to list the product then it has to have legitimate instructions that have been vetted for errors.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I have always had an issue with 110.3(B) and how most people read it. Most read it as that applies to all instructions that are supplied with the equipment, and UL insists that is the case. However the code language only says that for listed equipment, up to the 2023 code, only the instructions included in the listing or labeling. To me that means instructions that are found in the product listing standard and those that are found in the UL Guide Information for that product, not anything that the manufacturer wants to write.

The waters were muddied a lot in the 2023 code when they expanded 110.3(B) to include not only listed products but also "identified products" and requires us to comply with the instructions provided with the identified product.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I had a somewhat heated argument in the UL board room in Northbrook, IL, a number of years ago, when I tried to get them to say that the instructions on a Halo fixture that specified the use of Crescent brand tools to install the fixture was not a 110.3(B) instruction. Both of those companies were owned by Cooper at the time. They were very reluctant to say that the written information on the box was not a 110.3(B) instruction. They finally after at least 5 minutes said, well maybe those instructions are not 110.3(B).

They still insist that every written word provide by a manufacture with a listed product is a 110.3(B) instruction.

 

[electrofelon]

I had a somewhat heated argument in the UL board room in Northbrook, IL, a number of years ago,

Please tell me there is a video of that....

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Please tell me there is a video of that....

fortunately it was before cell phones with video were common

 

[Seven-Delta-FortyOne]

Maybe it’s because I’m in a rural area, but here, common sense generally prevails with the inspectors I deal with.

None of the inspectors I ever deal with, would ever waste their time or mine by reading the instruction manual for a residential refrigerator. And if they did, they would understand that industry standards and the NEC, require OCP, and they would leave it at that.

If there was a CB in the panel, they’d sign the card.

With larger commercial or industrial equipment, where something like that would matter, it would be a different story.

 

[kwired]

UL absolutely insists that they do a 100% review of the instructions for all of the products that they list, but based on a lot of instructions I have seen, they don't actually review them. Maybe they look at them, but no review for technical accuracy.

Maybe part of the problem is there is other NRTL's besides UL?

Something that is listed by UL may likely have decent instructions?

 

[kwired]

I also have the opinion the "NEC inspection" normally stops at the receptacle particularly when dealing with typical cord and plug connected appliances like a household refrigerator.

 

[retirede]

I also have the opinion the "NEC inspection" normally stops at the receptacle particularly when dealing with typical cord and plug connected appliances like a household refrigerator.

To add - in the case of new construction, appliances such as refrigerators likely won’t even be present at final inspection.

 

[kwired]

To add - in the case of new construction, appliances such as refrigerators likely won’t even be present at final inspection.

Even if they were, I sure hope the inspector isn't asking for and reading through the instructions for those kind of items

 

[infinity]

To add - in the case of new construction, appliances such as refrigerators likely won’t even be present at final inspection.

Maybe for a single family dwelling but for something like a new apartment building someone will probably be checking it.