Manufacturer's Instructions

[jaggedben]

This is why I just read 'fused' as a general term for overcurrent protection. Go ahead, tar and feather me.

 

[infinity]

This is why I just read 'fused' as a general term for overcurrent protection. Go ahead, tar and feather me.

Ditto that. My conclusion with the HVAC equipment as well.

 

[retirede]

Maybe for a single family dwelling but for something like a new apartment building someone will probably be checking it.

Yes, I was thinking single family residence when I commented.

 

[petersonra]

I had a somewhat heated argument in the UL board room in Northbrook, IL, a number of years ago, when I tried to get them to say that the instructions on a Halo fixture that specified the use of Crescent brand tools to install the fixture was not a 110.3(B) instruction. Both of those companies were owned by Cooper at the time. They were very reluctant to say that the written information on the box was not a 110.3(B) instruction. They finally after at least 5 minutes said, well maybe those instructions are not 110.3(B).

They still insist that every written word provide by a manufacture with a listed product is a 110.3(B) instruction.

If you look at a lot of instructions they often come with words like suggested or recommended for certain things. Suggestions and recommendations don't have to be followed.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Ditto that. My conclusion with the HVAC equipment as well.

View attachment 2570690

The UL Marking and Application Guide for Electrical Heating and Cooling Equipment does not agree.

The markings for short-circuit and ground-fault protection always include some indication of the type of protection device as well as the maximum current rating. This is significant since the various types of devices recognized by the NEC® to provide this protection do not necessarily
provide the same level of protection for all units. Briefly, if the marking indicates:

1) Only “Fuse,” then only fuses are to be used;

2) “Circuit Breaker” and “Fuse,” then either fuses or circuit breakers

3) “Fuse or Circuit Breaker” or “Overcurrent Protection,” then fuses or any type of circuit
breaker (including “HACR Type”) may be used

 

[mtnelect]

I have always wondered what training the truck drivers have, that deliver and install appliances ?

 

[infinity]

The UL Marking and Application Guide for Electrical Heating and Cooling Equipment does not agree.

I was agreeing with jagged in that more than not no one really cares. I doubt that a modern heat pump would require fuses. It's more likely that the person who made up the wording of the label was not too bright and confused fuse with OCPD. I actually sent an email to that manufacturer for clarification but they never responded. We wired about 1500 of these units with circuit breakers and not one fuse. No one cared about that either.

 

[jim dungar]

I was agreeing with jagged in that more than not no one really cares. I doubt that a modern heat pump would require fuses. It's more likely that the person who made up the wording of the label was not too bright and confused fuse with OCPD. I actually sent an email to that manufacturer for clarification but they never responded. We wired about 1500 of these units with circuit breakers and not one fuse. No one cared about that either.

Fuses are often specified as part of a devices Short Circuit Current Rating. Applying circuit breakers instead of fuses could mean your installations may not meet NEC 110.10 as well as other sections.

 

[electrofelon]

Fuses are often specified as part of a devices Short Circuit Current Rating. Applying circuit breakers instead of fuses could mean your installations may not meet NEC 110.10 as well as other sections.

Possibly, but I think if a fuse was required for a series rating , wouldn't it specify a specific type of fuse and not just any fuse?

 

[tortuga]

The UL Marking and Application Guide for Electrical Heating and Cooling Equipment does not agree.

Yeah and inspectors here are aware of that and enforcing it, I doubt it has any basis in reality.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Yeah and inspectors here are aware of that and enforcing it, I doubt it has any basis in reality.

I expect it is based only on what the manufacturer is willing to pay the listing agency to test. Testing for both would cost more money, but if I was making the choice to only test for one type of device, it would be a breaker and not a fuse.

 

[jaggedben]

The UL Marking and Application Guide for Electrical Heating and Cooling Equipment does not agree.

Then UL should make manufacturers use correct terminology on their labeling, as infinity is pointing out. Did that manufacturer really test their fridges with fuses?

Also there are a bunch of types of fuses, do I really get to use any dang type of fuse because they were too lazy to specify?

This is really a BS area IMO. Manufacturers and UL being lazy as @#$% so they can stick it to the installer who very reasonably used adequate circuit breaker overcurrent protection when something goes wrong that may have had nothing to do with what type of overcurrent protection was used. Or at least just test the damn equipment with circuit breakers for crying out loud.

 

[LarryFine]

This is why I just read 'fused' as a general term for overcurrent protection. Go ahead, tar and feather me.

Me, too. Think of "fused" as a verb here.

 

[qcroanoke]

I have always wondered what training the truck drivers have, that deliver and install appliances ?

See Video
Money For Nothing
By Dire Straits.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Then UL should make manufacturers use correct terminology on their labeling, as infinity is pointing out. Did that manufacturer really test their fridges with fuses?

Also there are a bunch of types of fuses, do I really get to use any dang type of fuse because they were too lazy to specify?

This is really a BS area IMO. Manufacturers and UL being lazy as @#$% so they can stick it to the installer who very reasonably used adequate circuit breaker overcurrent protection when something goes wrong that may have had nothing to do with what type of overcurrent protection was used. Or at least just test the damn equipment with circuit breakers for crying out loud.

The product standard for air conditioning equipment has a testing procedure for when the manufacture specifies fuses. The unit is tested with standard fuses four times. If two of the times the fuse opens, then the test is repeated with time delay fuses and if those don't blow the nameplate is required to specify time delay fuses.

No idea of the testing requirements for refrigerators and too lazy to spend the time looking at the standard as UL uses the same non-user-friendly viewing system as the NFPA uses for the free viewing of the NEC.

 

[texie]

If you look at a lot of instructions they often come with words like suggested or recommended for certain things. Suggestions and recommendations don't have to be followed.

You raise a point that has been an issue for me for years. As I regularly interact with a few NRTLs, I have raised this issue of improper documentation that is often in conflict with the NEC or the listing. All of the NRTLs need to do a much better job of policing install manuals. And like you, I have had some rather heated conversations about this.

 

[mtnelect]

The product standard for air conditioning equipment has a testing procedure for when the manufacture specifies fuses. The unit is tested with standard fuses four times. If two of the times the fuse opens, then the test is repeated with time delay fuses and if those don't blow the nameplate is required to specify time delay fuses.

No idea of the testing requirements for refrigerators and too lazy to spend the time looking at the standard as UL uses the same non-user-friendly viewing system as the NFPA uses for the free viewing of the NEC.

I always use dual element fuses in my installation, I never use breakers.

 

[Jraef]

I wonder how badly our instructions are translated into other languages.

A number of years ago I had a stint doing technical writing for an equipment manufacturer, making installation and operation manuals for soft starters and drives. I got a call from their main representative in China wanting clarification on something I had written, but what he related back to me made no sense. Turned out they mistranslated a number of things that I had said, and those mistakes compounded into becoming nonsense. One that I remember was my use of the term “heavy duty”, which was translated verbatim to come out as the equivalent of “large obligation”, which then changed the context in how other words were interpreted and translated. It was a mess.

 

[kwired]

I have always wondered what training the truck drivers have, that deliver and install appliances ?

Just enough that they are likely to think a male to male cord is acceptable to back feed a portable generator to the range or dryer receptacle for standby power.

 

[mtnelect]

Just enough that they are likely to think a male to male cord is acceptable to back feed a portable generator to the range or dryer receptacle for standby power.

I have been using that method now for more than 20 years, with an interlock. For me it's a simple solution for less than a full day problem.