Moving Neutrals To Sub Panel

[A/A Fuel GTX]

I know this topic has been discussed before but what harm does it do to leave the neutrals in from circuits re located to an adjacent sub panel in the main panel? It seems rather senseless to splice already landed grounded conductors and run them a foot over to the new sub panel. I just don't see the blatant violation in leaving them un disturbed.

 

[charlie]

. . . what harm does it do to leave the neutrals in from circuits re located to an adjacent sub panel in the main panel? . .

300.3 Conductors. (B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4).

From the NFPA NEC Handbook

This general rule remains consistent with electrical theory; that is, to reduce inductive heating and to avoid increases in overall circuit impedance, all circuit conductors of an individual circuit must be grouped. Similar requirements are found in 300.5(I).

It is also a violation of 110.12 and indicates that the person who did this work is a poor electrician. :roll:

 

[petersonra]

I know this topic has been discussed before but what harm does it do to leave the neutrals in from circuits re located to an adjacent sub panel in the main panel? It seems rather senseless to splice already landed grounded conductors and run them a foot over to the new sub panel. I just don't see the blatant violation in leaving them un disturbed.

I don't think there is a code violation as long as the wire you run to the new panel is sufficient for the ampacity.

 

[benaround]

I know this topic has been discussed before but what harm does it do to leave the neutrals in from circuits re located to an adjacent sub panel in the main panel? It seems rather senseless to splice already landed grounded conductors and run them a foot over to the new sub panel. I just don't see the blatant violation in leaving them un disturbed.

In the main panel the neutral and ground are intermixed in a sub panel they

are required to be seperated and the neutral isolated from ground. BLATANT.

 

[LarryFine]

This general rule remains consistent with electrical theory; that is, to reduce inductive heating and to avoid increases in overall circuit impedance, all circuit conductors of an individual circuit must be grouped. Similar requirements are found in 300.5(I).

Just like switch loops, if you run the feeder conductors from the main panel to a sub-panel, and the new extended circuit hot conductors from the sub-panel back to the main panel, all in the same nipple or other raceway, the currents completely cancel, and there will be no inductive heating. The same thing is true when installing a generator transfer-switch panel.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

In the main panel the neutral and ground are intermixed in a sub panel they

are required to be seperated and the neutral isolated from ground. BLATANT.

Frank....Of course the neutrals and grounds are separated in the sub panel. All new circuits originating from the sub will be wired accordingly. I don't call what I originally described blatant......

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

300.3 Conductors. (B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1) through (B)(4).

So the EGC's also must be moved:-? I guess my lack of theory interpretation make this hard for me comprehend. OK, playing devils advocate here....I've got a main panel, a 12" nipple which is a raceway, going into a sub panel which could be construed as a raceway(maybe?). Wouldn't that satisfy 300.3? I could see if I were using SER and NM-B to go into the sub panel where it would be a more obvious violation.

 

[steelersman]

In the main panel the neutral and ground are intermixed in a sub panel they

are required to be seperated and the neutral isolated from ground. BLATANT.

What you said makes no sense and has nothing to do with it and was blunt and somewhat rude. Charlie's answer makes sense. Oh and Larry's too. But Charlie's is much easier to understand.

 

[LarryFine]

Charlie's answer makes sense. Oh and Larry's too. But Charlie's is much easier to understand.

Yeah? Well, you wouldn't have said that if I was a moderator. You're just being a brown-noser!








(Kust kidding! :grin

 

[Buck Parrish]

I know this topic has been discussed before but what harm does it do to leave the neutrals in from circuits re located to an adjacent sub panel in the main panel? It seems rather senseless to splice already landed grounded conductors and run them a foot over to the new sub panel. I just don't see the blatant violation in leaving them un disturbed.

I could have been a MD for the amount of time it takes to learn electrical.
With 20 years expierience , by no means am I an expert.
But what you are describing is basics to the electrical industry.
I did not read your bio. It would still be easy to be knowlidgebile about electronics and not know this about the neutral and equipment ground.:grin:

After your first disconnect the neutral and equipment ground must be isolated. There are many books on this subject. And yes it is frequently discussed.:grin: Hang in their until you get your answer. Which you did all ready. but may be you want therory behind it, That's cool. This forum is for dicussion and learning and debates , their the most fun.
But keep it civil. All though it is Saturday.:wink:
And I should say light haertedly respect those answers from those with several thousand post.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

After your first disconnect the neutral and equipment ground must be isolated.

That is not the issue at all . The issue is, why do I have to un-land a grounded conductor at a main panel's neutral bar, splice a longer wire on to it and move it over 12" and land it again at an ISOLATED neutral bar in a sub panel.

 

[Buck Parrish]

Yeah, I was rushing.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

That is not the issue at all . The issue is, why do I have to un-land a grounded conductor at a main panel's neutral bar, splice a longer wire on to it and move it over 12" and land it again at an ISOLATED neutral bar in a sub panel.

Because NEC says to.Stupid yes but a lot in NEC is.They cant write a book to cover every thing.Yes what your doing will work but a sharp inspector will tag you .

 

[celtic]

Because NEC says to.Stupid yes but a lot in NEC is.

I think it has a bit more depth than "the NEC says so and it's a stoopid rule".

If the ungrounded conductor is in a new panel, how did it become unassociated with it's grounded counterparts?

Now that these conductors have become disassociated, will heat (inductive) now become a factor?
Will this separation have any affect on the impedance of the circuit?

The NEC logic is more than a crowd of eggheads saying "Let's screw with the EC's out there".

 

[Buck Parrish]

.

If the ungrounded conductor is in a new panel, how did it become unassociated with it's grounded counterparts?

If you put a sub panel next to the main panel with a isolation switch for a generator. You would pull some circuits out of the main panel and in to the sub. :wink:

 

[steelersman]

Yeah? Well, you wouldn't have said that if I was a moderator. You're just being a brown-noser!








(Kust kidding! :grin

Sorry Larry.

 

[steelersman]

I could have been a MD for the amount of time it takes to learn electrical.
With 20 years expierience , by no means am I an expert.
But what you are describing is basics to the electrical industry.
I did not read your bio. It would still be easy to be knowlidgebile about electronics and not know this about the neutral and equipment ground.:grin:

After your first disconnect the neutral and equipment ground must be isolated. There are many books on this subject. And yes it is frequently discussed.:grin: Hang in their until you get your answer. Which you did all ready. but may be you want therory behind it, That's cool. This forum is for dicussion and learning and debates , their the most fun.
But keep it civil. All though it is Saturday.:wink:
And I should say light haertedly respect those answers from those with several thousand post.

so you think just cause someone has a few or a couple thousand posts that they should be able to talk to someone like they're a piece of *&%# for simply asking a question? Blatant

 

[Buck Parrish]

Maybe if you would change your avitar . You would be taken more seriously.:smile:

 

[iaov]

What about using old panel as a junction box , running hots and neutrals through a nipple to new panel, bonding old panel/ j-box to new box and leaving the EGC's in old panel/ j-box??

 

[steelersman]

Maybe if you would change your avitar . You would be taken more seriously.:smile:

maybe by you. Anyone should be taken seriously by the mere fact that they're here at the forum. I don't think there are any pranksters or comedians stumbling on here pulling anyone's legs.