Moving Neutrals To Sub Panel

[walkerj]

Has anyone installed a 6 or 8 circuit Generac transfer switch. They come with a prewired whip that contains hots out from the breakers on the original panel and hots returning from the 6 or 8 generac switches. Only 1 neutral in the whip to be landed on the original neutral bar. The original branch circuit neutrals remain in the original panel.

Is this not the same as the OP's question about a sub panel 12 inches away.

How do these things get approved, I see them all over the place. Better than backfeeding a breaker but does not comply with the NEC as quoted by others.

This is compliant because the electromagnetic fields cancel each other out because they are moving in two different directions.

All it is is a switch loop

 

[steelersman]

This is compliant because the electromagnetic fields cancel each other out because they are moving in two different directions.

All it is is a switch loop

inspector made me wire them to the whips neutrals. I think the inspector was right, and I just didn't know about that code. But now I do.

 

[massfd]

This is compliant because the electromagnetic fields cancel each other out because they are moving in two different directions.

All it is is a switch loop

I forgot about the return canceling, DUHHHH. Thanks for the reminder, I need to think these things out.

I do not like this Transfer switch design anyway, I would prefer a regular 2 pole switch powering a sub panel with isolated neutral bar and a ground bar. Much nicer install but then we are back to moving the OP's neutrals again.

 

[steelersman]

I forgot about the return canceling, DUHHHH. Thanks for the reminder, I need to think these things out.

I do not like this Transfer switch design anyway, I would prefer a regular 2 pole switch powering a sub panel with isolated neutral bar and a ground bar. Much nicer install but then we are back to moving the OP's neutrals again.

That's what the transfer switch is. It's basically a sub-panel that has a prefabbed whip with circuits in it and you run that into your main panel and splice them all together so your neutrals and hots are wirenutted to the wires in the whip. And the panel is just a j-box for those circuits that are now fed out of the sub-panel (transfer switch).

 

[LarryFine]

I actually did that once just like you said and the inspector made me wirenut the neutrals to the neutrals in the whip for the corresponding circuits.

I've never seen one of those, automatic or manual, with anything except one large neutral conductor, whose purpose it is to connect the generator's neutral to the main panel's neutral, where the circuit neutrals remain.

Anything else would not be in compliance with the manufacturer's instructions, yo.

 

[steelersman]

I've never seen one of those, automatic or manual, with anything except one large neutral conductor, whose purpose it is to connect the generator's neutral to the main panel's neutral, where the circuit neutrals remain.

Anything else would not be in compliance with the manufacturer's instructions, yo.

Here is a photo of a transfer switch with the whip with x amount of circuits prewired ready to be installed into the main panel and wirenutted to whatever circuits you want it to power up, including the neutrals for 120volt circuits: http://www.generac.com/Products/Information/TransferSwitches.aspx?src=ac

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I've never seen one of those, automatic or manual, with anything except one large neutral conductor, whose purpose it is to connect the generator's neutral to the main panel's neutral, where the circuit neutrals remain.

Anything else would not be in compliance with the manufacturer's instructions, yo.

I heard the generator companies are moving toward individual neutrals to avoid problems with the arc faults.

 

[steelersman]

I heard the generator companies are moving toward individual neutrals to avoid problems with the arc faults.

I've only wired up 3 generator transfer switches, and all 3 of them had the circuits prewired with individual neutrals to be spliced to the individual neutrals of the corresponding circuits.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I've only wired up 3 generator transfer switches, and all 3 of them had the circuits prewired with individual neutrals to be spliced to the individual neutrals of the corresponding circuits.

I believe the new ones are being made that way or perhaps generac has always done that. Not sure but I heard that it had changed for some companies.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I know this topic has been discussed before but what harm does it do to leave the neutrals in from circuits re located to an adjacent sub panel in the main panel? It seems rather senseless to splice already landed grounded conductors and run them a foot over to the new sub panel. I just don't see the blatant violation in leaving them un disturbed.

Here is a different look at the situation. If a single neutral is used between the panel and sub panel do all the ungrounded conductors become a MWBC and thus subject to the handle rule?

 

[LarryFine]

Here is a different look at the situation. If a single neutral is used between the panel and sub panel do all the ungrounded conductors become a MWBC and thus subject to the handle rule?

Not if the generator has a main breaker.

 

[JohnJ0906]

I believe the new ones are being made that way or perhaps generac has always done that. Not sure but I heard that it had changed for some companies.

I know that Generac used to have one large neutral in the whip, but changed a few years back to separate neutrals for each circuit.

 

[petersonra]

That is not the issue at all . The issue is, why do I have to un-land a grounded conductor at a main panel's neutral bar, splice a longer wire on to it and move it over 12" and land it again at an ISOLATED neutral bar in a sub panel.

I don't think you do. As long as it doesn't feed though any of the items listed in one of the other posts. Just set the panelboards so they butt up to each other. No raceway, aux gutter, or anything else required to hook it up.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

I don't think you do. As long as it doesn't feed though any of the items listed in one of the other posts. Just set the panelboards so they butt up to each other. No raceway, aux gutter, or anything else required to hook it up.

So you are saying that if I close nipple the panels together I wouldn't have to move the neutrals from the main to the sub?

 

[petersonra]

So you are saying that if I close nipple the panels together I wouldn't have to move the neutrals from the main to the sub?

That is my opinion. An inspector might feel differently about it though.

 

[winnie]

So you are saying that if I close nipple the panels together I wouldn't have to move the neutrals from the main to the sub?

I agree with petersonra, with the caveat that all of the hot conductors for the circuits moved would need to go through the same hole as the feeder to the subpanel.

-Jon

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

I agree with petersonra, with the caveat that all of the hot conductors for the circuits moved would need to go through the same hole as the feeder to the subpanel.

-Jon

That is basically my situation with the only twist being a 6" nipple instead of a close nipple. The four hots from the circuits moved to the sub panel along with the sub panel feeders are all in the 6" nipple. Sin or not:-?

 

[rabtrfld]

I know this topic has been discussed before but what harm does it do to leave the neutrals in from circuits re located to an adjacent sub panel in the main panel? It seems rather senseless to splice already landed grounded conductors and run them a foot over to the new sub panel. I just don't see the blatant violation in leaving them un disturbed.

I think some folks misunderstood whether the branch circuit issues from the main or sub panel...

View attachment 2287 (click to view)

 

[LarryFine]

That is basically my situation with the only twist being a 6" nipple instead of a close nipple. The four hots from the circuits moved to the sub panel along with the sub panel feeders are all in the 6" nipple. Sin or not:-?

Definitely not, electrically speaking. Maybe so, code-wise, but I've done it and will continue until someone stops me.

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

I think some folks misunderstood whether the branch circuit issues from the main or sub panel...

View attachment 2287 (click to view)

Thank You....A picture is worth a thousand words.