Need some help from the Resi guys.

[KD4315]

Thanks for all of the replies. A little bit more about my house. It's a single story 3 bedroom rancher that is a whopping 1,040 square feet. Every thing is gas, heater, water heater, stove, and dryer. I have no plans to go to electric.

House was definitely built in 1954 and I'm pretty certain it's K&T. See pic below. K&T was very common around here for all the houses built around this time.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Thanks for all of the replies. A little bit more about my house. It's a single story 3 bedroom rancher that is a whopping 1,040 square feet. Every thing is gas, heater, water heater, stove, and dryer. I have no plans to go to electric.

House was definitely built in 1954 and I'm pretty certain it's K&T. See pic below. K&T was very common around here for all the houses built around this time.

Yup. That's Knob & Tube, all right.

One other thought. Even though you aren't planning to turn off the gas yet, placing a 200 Amp service on a house of this size leaves the house ready to move to the most rapidly "greening" energy source in the future.

 

[GoldDigger]

I have had better luck replacing the phillips screws with robertson heads. It really sucks when the screw gets about 1/4 inch from being seated and the head strips out totally round. We have some really hard wood in some of these old homes. It's almost like bone.

This is where the impact screwdriver really shines, although if you overdo it, especially with thin screws, you will twist the head end off rather than rounding the Phillips or Posidrive slot.

 

[Clodbuster]

Got some good tips here and good luck on your remodel.

I'll add one more tip on removing boxes from plaster walls - if you have the style box where the nails pass THRU the box and are visible inside it with the device removed, I just use a tool called a nailjack to grab the nail and pull it loose from INSIDE the box. You can do this quite easily and then pull the box out of the wall, drop it in the opening, or unscrew and disassemble it to remove from the wall, depending on the style.

I much prefer this to the sawzall on brittle plaster...

 

[480sparky]

he can combine circuits inside panel once everything is wired thereby reducing amount of circuit space needed

Still a waste with excess HRs.

 

[ActionDave]

Still a waste with excess HRs.

He needs to pull a HR for every room just because he is working in one room at a time?

Wait. I see that he wants a HR to each room. I still don't see a problem it that's what he wants.

 

[James L]

A single story house is a cinch to rewire, even fishing. But gutting 1 room at a time...

Wire lights and smokes from attic on 1 or 2 circuits. Just leave 50 feet of slack so you have wire to work with in the next rooms. Or if you're wiring the room closest to the panel first, jump the feed to the next room and put it in a j-box in the attic to use later. Same with smokes circuit. Plan for lighting circuit(s) to have only lighting.

Then wire receps from basement. You can put 2 rooms on one circuit the same way as in attic. Just leave a feed long enough for the next room and put it in a j-box til you need it.

One plus to this method is you can use 14ga. wire for lighting and 12ga. for receptacles. You'll appreciate the 14ga. when it comes to box fill in switch boxes.

Couple of things:
Smoke detectors can mount on either a single gang or round box. I would use a single gang on the old wood. Easier to deal with if you nail it on a little crooked. Make sure you put one in basement.

Dining room receptacles = small appliance circuit like kitchen. I usually share with fridge

Wiring lights are much easier and faster if you feed switches, then switch leg up to lights, rather than feeding lights and running a switch loop.....imho

Wire lights in your attic first. They'll come in handy as work lights

And one very important one - leave minimal amount of sheathing in your boxes (1/4" - 1/2"). Much less aggravation when you cram your makeup into the box.

 

[Little Bill]

First suggestion is forget 225, it will be a 200.

Typically meter sockets are rated up to 200 amps and then jump up to 320/400 amp sizes and I doubt you need greater than 200 if you are getting by on a 30 now.

Also residential load centers are 100, 150, 200 etc. not 225 like commercial panels.

I agree that 225A is not needed and the meter will be either 200A or 320A. But a 225A panel is common and available in load centers. You may not have them where you're at but we have them here. I've installed two in the last 3 months.

 

[iwire]

I agree that 225A is not needed and the meter will be either 200A or 320A. But a 225A panel is common and available in load centers.

I figured someone would have an issue with that.

So you install 225 amp services in dwelling units?

What size wire do you use?

What size meter socket is used?

 

[Little Bill]

I figured someone would have an issue with that.

So you install 225 amp services in dwelling units?

What size wire do you use?

What size meter socket is used?

Yes

3/0 copper

200A meter socket

As I stated the meter socket is either 200A or 320A

Never said it made sense, just that I've done it and it's done a lot here.

Customer asks for 225A, I explain it but they still want it, done deal!

 

[ActionDave]

Yes

3/0 copper

200A meter socket

As I stated the meter socket is either 200A or 320A

Never said it made sense, just that I've done it and it's done a lot here.

Customer asks for 225A, I explain it but they still want it, done deal!

I'm thinking it has something to do with what his neighbour or friend has on his house.

 

[iwire]

Yes

3/0 copper

200A meter socket

As I stated the meter socket is either 200A or 320A

Never said it made sense, just that I've done it and it's done a lot here.

Customer asks for 225A, I explain it but they still want it, done deal!

But that is not a 225 amp service and it is a code violation.

 

[ptonsparky]

Go with a 320 meter socket and the 225 panel. The POCO may update the drop to a #2 ACSR and possibly increase the transformer to a 25 if it has not been changed in the last 50 years.

After all, adding a DW and Disposal, A/C, plus 4 SA circuits does get you up to a calc load of 62 amps. Give or take a few.

Maybe.

 

[electricguy61]

I do a lot of high end residential, and I run a dedicated 15amp per room (2 for large master bedrooms, 1 lighting, 1 for plugs). It helps with troubleshooting, especially AFCI and no problems if they run a space heater.

I rewired my own home 1 room at a time. Going down to bare studs allows you to properly insulate. Those older homes also have a ton of fire blocking, which can make wiring from above or below difficult. Sheetrock is much easier to repair for the future then plaster.

Buy a number of auger bits, change them often, and have them sharpened, as you will go through them. Buy the plastic staples from Lowes or Home Depot. They will drive much easier in the hard wood.

Pull a permit for the service change, wire the rooms as you have time.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Still a waste with excess HRs.

He needs to pull a HR for every room just because he is working in one room at a time?

Wait. I see that he wants a HR to each room. I still don't see a problem if that's what he wants.

`
Kevin, this may not be the way you'd do it, but it's a nice touch for KD. At 1100 square feet in a single story dwelling this simply is not going to be an issue, as we're darn near having a home run to every room in the NEC minimum requirements already.

Without knowing the floor plan, nor whether the branch circuit is 15 or 20 Amp, in an 1100 square foot dwelling, the area of the Living Room and Beds will probably almost fit in 600 square feet. Using the General Lighting calculation as the guide to spec the Home Runs, the Living Room and Beds will probably be a grand total of two. Putting a home run in each of those rooms bumps the total to four or five. . . adding a home run for the Dining Room, and another for Outside receptacles (why, even separate circuits, one for the front and one for the back) and a few more, in a dwelling that has gas heat, gas range, gas dryer, gas water heat, just simply is not going to tax the 42 poles of a full size service center.

 

[growler]

We're planning on expanding our house soon but I need to rewire it before we do that.

`
Kevin, this may not be the way you'd do it, but it's a nice touch for KD. At 1100 square feet in a single story dwelling this simply is not going to be an issue, as we're darn near having a home run to every room in the NEC minimum requirements already.

The 1100 sq ft is the existing house but then there is the unknown expansion. I doubt there will be a problem with one circuit for each room but I always draw out everything before I wire it so there will be no surprises and I don't leave anything out. You can often use less materials and do less work to accomplish the same results if you plan properly.

If a person sits down with a legal pad and a #2 pencil they can figure out the number of circuits needed and often save on materials and work needed to accomplish the task.

 

[al hildenbrand]

The 1100 sq ft is the existing house but then there is the unknown expansion. I doubt there will be a problem with one circuit for each room but I always draw out everything before I wire it so there will be no surprises and I don't leave anything out. You can often use less materials and do less work to accomplish the same results if you plan properly.

If a person sits down with a legal pad and a #2 pencil they can figure out the number of circuits needed and often save on materials and work needed to accomplish the task.

Agreed.

To my way of thinking, although the existing load simply doesn't require it, the 200 Amp service size is the single best investment. The possibilities of future electric vehicle, micro power generation, transitioning from carbon based energy for appliances, in the OP's dwelling should be well handled by a 48 kVA service. There may be the need for more poles, but an additional subpanel can handle that, if ever needed.

 

[growler]

Agreed.

To my way of thinking, although the existing load simply doesn't require it, the 200 Amp service size is the single best investment. The possibilities of future electric vehicle, micro power generation, transitioning from carbon based energy for appliances, in the OP's dwelling should be well handled by a 48 kVA service. There may be the need for more poles, but an additional subpanel can handle that, if ever needed.

For sure I would install a full sized 200 amp panel ( I like lots of room & planning for future expansion ). I did one house where I would find a 20 amp circuit feeding nothing more than a couple of can lights and that's just a waste of money and panel space. I don't mind running a dedicated circuit to each bathroom or any place where it may be needed but to feed one light or fan with a dedicated circuit is a complete waste.

 

[mgookin]

A residential 200A panel, breakers and romex are cheap when you're doing your own house.
All these comments about waste are unfounded.
It's the grunt work which is the investment and most people enjoy it and take pride in doing it at their own home. After all, it's where they intend to live for the next 50 years.

 

[JFletcher]

A residential 200A panel, breakers and romex are cheap when you're doing your own house.
All these comments about waste are unfounded.
It's the grunt work which is the investment and most people enjoy it and take pride in doing it at their own home. After all, it's where they intend to live for the next 50 years.

Not to mention, the more devices on a circuit, the more potential for problems. NM cable is dirt cheap compared to the time spent chasing down why an AFCI is tripping. As a HO, I'd blueprint my wire runs for future use/troubleshooting.

Also, having seen more than a few snafus with kitchens, know your EXACT FINAL layout of cabinents/countertops/backsplashes/built-in microwave/ range/rangehood/dishwasher/refrigerator/garbage disposal/etc. before boxing and wiring - changing up after you've wired (and drywalled, and installed everything) is going to cost you a lot of time and aggravation. That little 14" countertop that got added last second? - it needs a receptacle over it. Stuff like that.

Also, while you use gas exclusively, it may be to your benefit to wire everything for electric - one never knows which (gas or electric) will be more expensive in the future, and with electric everywhere, you have more options. Just a thought while the walls are opened up...