Need some help from the Resi guys.

[KD4315]

After all, adding a DW and Disposal, A/C, plus 4 SA circuits does get you up to a calc load of 62 amps. Give or take a few.

Maybe.

Funny enough that is what started this whole thing other than the need to expand. 5 kids in 1000 sqft is cramped.

We completely gutted and redid our bathroom earlier this year. The hack that did the bathroom and kitchen last time thought it would be a good idea to "splice" actually and open air splice in the wall, the garbage disposal AND dishwasher to the the K&T feeding the GFI in e bathroom. It was some scary shit. I don't really trust our wiring anymore.


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[al hildenbrand]

Our house was built in 1954 and we still have the original knob and tube with the original 30A service.

The hack that did the bathroom and kitchen last time thought it would be a good idea to "splice" actually and open air splice in the wall, the garbage disposal AND dishwasher to the the K&T feeding the GFI in e bathroom.

The State of Minnesota established its Electrical Act in 1899 establishing Statewide enforcement of the NEC. By the 1960s, an existing 30 Amp service was defined by local ordinance in many Minnesota cities as overloaded, therefore making it against Code to add any more branch circuits without increasing the overall service capacity. A 30 Amp 240 / 120 V service has a "let-through" of only 7.2 kW, and that goes pretty quickly in a modest single family home with five kids and all the activity at the beginning and end of the day. . .

The "hack" work of cobbling what should be two more branch circuits, in their own right, to the bath circuit, is the kind of "hack" work I find in dwellings, here, where the DIYer "made do" with limited knowledge and / or limited funds. . . tackling the hurdle of a service upgrade is unsurmountable to many a do-it-yourselfer. Eventually someone like us gets the opportunity to set things right.

KD, for my own curiosity. . . do you have a picture(s) of the service that you'd be willing to post? I am in a metro of about 3 million souls, and I have yet to see a K&T install this young. Is the original fused? Is it in a factory manufactured enclosure? How are the service conductors routed from the power company point-of-service to entering the panel? Where is the meter? I suspect that there may be some interesting differences, based on '50s Code, that I wouldn't find, here in my area, in the 30 Amp fuse centers from earlier in the Twentieth Century. (Not the least of which would be the "San Francisco" flavor of wiring).

 

[Frank DuVal]

Netpog, you meant K1412 and a K1012? I know I might be in the minority, but I like to use the K1412 (actually mine is the older straight handled version) to remove the Romex sheath before I stab it in to the box. Using a slitter or razor knife up inside a deep box slows me down.

I second the battery impact driver over the battery screwdriver/drill. No comparison in number of screws driven without rounding out Phillips or Roberson (square).

Frank DuVal

 

[Little Bill]

But that is not a 225 amp service and it is a code violation.

I mis-spoke earlier, it was a 320A meter socket.
I had forgotten that this particular POCO furnishes the meter bases. One of the lineman had asked me what size service conductors I was using in the mast/weatherhead. When I told him 3/0 he ordered a 320A meter base. One of the guys working with me installed it, that's why I forgot it was changed.

 

[KD4315]

KD, for my own curiosity. . . do you have a picture(s) of the service that you'd be willing to post? I am in a metro of about 3 million souls, and I have yet to see a K&T install this young. Is the original fused? Is it in a factory manufactured enclosure? How are the service conductors routed from the power company point-of-service to entering the panel? Where is the meter? I suspect that there may be some interesting differences, based on '50s Code, that I wouldn't find, here in my area, in the 30 Amp fuse centers from earlier in the Twentieth Century. (Not the least of which would be the "San Francisco" flavor of wiring).

Sure. Below is a picture of my service now. I'm not sure if it's original to 1954. I have a feeling this is mid to late 70s possibly 80/81. I've heard around here in the 50s they were still using screw in glass fuses.

Here is what it looks on the inside.

 

[ptonsparky]

50s would be my guess. Definately not the 70s on. I was replacing those by then.

 

[kwired]

50s would be my guess. Definately not the 70s on. I was replacing those by then.

But if they were still installing K&T in the 50's ....

 

[al hildenbrand]

Sure. Below is a picture of my service now. I'm not sure if it's original to 1954. I have a feeling this is mid to late 70s possibly 80/81. I've heard around here in the 50s they were still using screw in glass fuses.

Wow! Weirder and weirder. What you have, in the C-H Multi-Breaker, is the first generation residential circuit breaker. Square D was the first to bring a circuit breaker to the residential market in 1936. Square D also called its offering the "Multi-Breaker". The breaker assembly was factory installed. The "plug-on" breakers didn't arrive until the Fifties. Multi-Breakers were not changeable, and the capacity of a specific breaker could not be changed like we do with today's hardware.

KD, your C-H Multi-Breaker looks almost identical to the Sq. D that I've seen. Someone chose, in 1954, to spend a little more for the "convenience" of circuit breakers at your home's service, rather than go with glass fuses.

I can believe that glass fuses were still being used then as well, in your area, as the Fifties and Sixties were transition decades, from fuse to circuit breaker as the preferred service center overcurrent protective device

50s would be my guess. Definately not the 70s on. I was replacing those by then.

I agree.

But if they were still installing K&T in the 50's ....

Yeah. It is an interesting installation! This shows four service disconnects. I love it.

KD, I'm also curious if you have found the transition of the branch circuit conduit runs to open Knob & Tube. How did those original installers handle the end of the raceway method transition to open wiring on insulators?

 

[mgookin]

It will be a cool artifact to keep around.

 

[Netpog]

Netpog, you meant K1412 and a K1012?

Actually, I meant to type "k1412-3", which does the round cables, but yes you'd want the k1210 for your 10/2 NM-B stripping pleasure.

I know I might be in the minority, but I like to use the K1412 (actually mine is the older straight handled version) to remove the Romex sheath before I stab it in to the box. Using a slitter or razor knife up inside a deep box slows me down.

Agreed! If you don't like shoving the unjacketed wires into the box, you can always use the tool to separate the jacket by a tiny bit, leaving it on until the cables are in.

I second the battery impact driver over the battery screwdriver/drill. No comparison in number of screws driven without rounding out Phillips or Roberson (square).

Frank DuVal

Camming-out of screws aside, you don't need wrist strength with the impact driver in hard wood.

 

[ptonsparky]

It will be a cool artifact to keep around.

Come to my shop, I have a lot of artifacts you can have.

 

[mgookin]

Come to my shop, I have a lot of artifacts you can have.

Next time Lightfair comes to Nebraska I'll be sure to drop in!

Some pics posted would be nice. Speaking of pics, I found a few online and didn't have time to post. I'll start a Pics thread for pics of interest.

 

[KD4315]

KD, I'm also curious if you have found the transition of the branch circuit conduit runs to open Knob & Tube. How did those original installers handle the end of the raceway method transition to open wiring on insulators?

Here you go:

 

[ptonsparky]

I have seen worse. A lot worse.

 

[al hildenbrand]

:thumbsup::thumbsup:
Thanks KD. Most gracious.

 

[ActionDave]

Wow! Weirder and weirder. What you have, in the C-H Multi-Breaker, is the first generation residential circuit breaker. Square D was the first to bring a circuit breaker to the residential market in 1936. Square D also called its offering the "Multi-Breaker"....

I have never seen a C-H multi breaker.

I have pulled multi breakers out of a Sq D panels and the breaker was labelled Westinghouse. I would say they were '50s or early 60's vintage. I don't know what the story is, but they definitely came that way from the factory.

 

[user 100]

But if they were still installing K&T in the 50's ....

Its entirely possible-some old dude may have had that antique lying around and decided to use it - but anyway, in the panel photo the pulled conductors are clearly type t or tw, so the panel and the pipe were wired in the 50's at the earliest.

Kind of hard to decipher the K&T conductors in the photos though- some of them are clearly covered in the thicker clothy/rubber stuff, but others appear to be covered by a thinner material, suggesting the thermoplastic and an animal of the '50s or later.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Loom

Loom

Kind of hard to decipher the K&T conductors in the photos though- some of them are clearly covered in the thicker clothy/rubber stuff, but others appear to be covered by a thinner material, suggesting the thermoplastic and an animal of the '50s or later.

I see a 4" square metal J-box on the end of the conduit, with 3 (three) pairs of loom covered K&T entering, a pair to a knock out. One pair is coming from the left along side the conduit. One pair of K&T loom covered conductors comes from through the two bys to the right of the J-box, and the last pair, which is the easiest to see, goes up through the two bys at the top of the wall and into the attic. Once this last pair gets far enough into the attic, it transitions from loom protected conductors to open wiring on insulators at a point where the clearances in 394.19 and 396.19 can be met.

The loom is the flexible nonmetallic tubing required when the clearances for the conductors could not be maintained. Loom was commonly a jute weave with a slip coat of cotton, all impregnated with a bituminous compound (that made the stuff distasteful to rodents and squirrels.)

 

[kwired]

Would be interesting to be able to go back in time and just watch them do their work, not only the electricians but all the construction trades.

Someday they will be talking about things we do and how much progress they have made over the years.

 

[KD4315]

Would be interesting to be able to go back in time and just watch them do their work, not only the electricians but all the construction trades.

Someday they will be talking about things we do and how much progress they have made over the years.

I will say that these houses were incredibly well built. When we had our bathroom apart all of the original rough edge redwood framing was still true and perfect. You can see below the hack work and then the original framing.