Nipple rule

Bill Snyder

NEC expert
Location
Denver, Co
Occupation
Electrical Foreman
Sections 358.30(A), 358.30(B)
(A) Securely Fastened.
EMT shall be securely fastened in place in accordance with the following:
  1. At intervals not to exceed 3 m (10 ft)
  2. Within 900 mm (3 ft) of each outlet box, junction box, device box, cabinet, conduit body, or other tubing termination
Exception No. 1: Fastening of unbroken lengths shall be permitted to be increased to a distance of 1.5 m (5 ft) where structural members do not readily permit fastening within 900 mm (3 ft).
Exception No. 2: For concealed work in finished buildings or prefinished wall panels where such securing is impracticable, unbroken lengths (without coupling) of EMT shall be permitted to be fished.
(B) Supports.
Horizontal runs of EMT supported by openings through framing members at intervals not greater than 3 m (10 ft) and securely fastened within 900 mm (3 ft) of termination points shall be permitted.
(C) Conduit sections 24" or less are considered to be "nipples" and can be unsupported for lengths of 24" or less.

Do you think 358.30(C) should be added back to the 2026 code cycle?
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
IMO it should be 36". If I can have the first strap at 3' (36" unsupported) when entering/leaving a box or an enclosure then 3' between two boxes or enclosures would provide the same amount of support. For one code cycle the NEC did allow 18".
 

Tulsa Electrician

Senior Member
Location
Tulsa
Occupation
Electrician
I would add unbroken to that and yes I would agree.
You can have a nipple or a 36 " broken piece with coupling(s).
Maybe word it unbroken lenght of 36" or less between each outlet box, junction box, device box, cabinet or enclosure.
I left out conduit body on purpose.
This could lead to 6' of unsupported raceway.
If not it can get pretty ugly and not real safe
 

Bill Snyder

NEC expert
Location
Denver, Co
Occupation
Electrical Foreman
IMO it should be 36". If I can have the first strap at 3' (36" unsupported) when entering/leaving a box or an enclosure then 3' between two boxes or enclosures would provide the same amount of support. For one code cycle the NEC did allow 18".
But the language stated unbroken at 18" my proposal is lengths not exceeding 24" unbroken or in 3 8" pieces
 

Bill Snyder

NEC expert
Location
Denver, Co
Occupation
Electrical Foreman
I would add unbroken to that and yes I would agree.
You can have a nipple or a 36 " broken piece with coupling(s).
Maybe word it unbroken lenght of 36" or less between each outlet box, junction box, device box, cabinet or enclosure.
I left out conduit body on purpose.
This could lead to 6' of unsupported raceway.
If not it can get pretty ugly and not real safe
I specifically stated broken or unbroken not to exceed 24"
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
Sections 358.30(A), 358.30(B)
(A) Securely Fastened.
EMT shall be securely fastened in place in accordance with the following:
  1. At intervals not to exceed 3 m (10 ft)
  2. Within 900 mm (3 ft) of each outlet box, junction box, device box, cabinet, conduit body, or other tubing termination
Exception No. 1: Fastening of unbroken lengths shall be permitted to be increased to a distance of 1.5 m (5 ft) where structural members do not readily permit fastening within 900 mm (3 ft).
Exception No. 2: For concealed work in finished buildings or prefinished wall panels where such securing is impracticable, unbroken lengths (without coupling) of EMT shall be permitted to be fished.
(B) Supports.
Horizontal runs of EMT supported by openings through framing members at intervals not greater than 3 m (10 ft) and securely fastened within 900 mm (3 ft) of termination points shall be permitted.
(C) Conduit sections 24" or less are considered to be "nipples" and can be unsupported for lengths of 24" or less.

Do you think 358.30(C) should be added back to the 2026 code cycle?
That has never been in the code. The closest was in the 2008 code for one cycle, but it only permitted 18". The PI for that was for 36", and accepted in the Report on Proposals, but the CMP changed it to 18" in the Report on Comments. It was removed the next code cycle because many thought that was adding a support rule that had not previously existed.

There have been a number of attempts to restore something like this, but they have all been soundly rejected by the CMP. I tried a couple of times but no luck. The last time I tried, it was to add an exception that said for unbroken lengths of 24" or less the conduit termination shall be permitted as the required method of securement and support.

Most inspectors do not require supports for these short lengths, but it would be nice to have a rule.
8-104 Log #1349 NEC-P08 Final Action: Accept
(358.30(C))
________________________________________________________________
Submitter: Mike Holt, Mike Holt Enterprises
Recommendation: Add the following text to 358.30
(C) Unsupported raceways: Type EMT shall be permitted to be unsupported where the raceway is not more than 900 mm (3 ft) in length and remains in unbroken lengths (without coupling). Such raceway shall terminate in an outlet box, junction box, device box, cabinet, or other termination at each end of the raceway.
Substantiation: Unsupported raceways are violations of the Code that occur everyday. As written, a 3 inch length of conduit between enclosures is required to be supported, despite the fact that it adds little if any structural value to the system. Quite often, particularly with conduit nipples, securing and supporting a raceway shorter than 36 inches is not possible. Furthermore, securing and supporting is of little value on lengths less than 36 inches where the conduit terminates at a box on each end, where the box is installed and supported in compliance with its applicable Code section.
This proposal is written with the parallel effect of Code sections that have been strived for in chapter 3, and matches the numbering system used in the Cable Articles. It also uses existing text taken from both the Cable Articles and the Raceway Articles. It also uses existing text taken from both the Cable Articles and the Raceway Articles.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 10 Negative: 2
Explanation of Negative:
DABE, J.: See my comment for 8-9.
HUMPHREY, D.: This proposal does not address other issues that may have a direct impact on the durability of the electrical installation. The affects
of weight and vibration on concentric and eccentric knockouts at each end of a three foot run between pieces of equipment, a scenario that would be frequently in many electrical installations, may compromise the strength of the installation. The raceway having even a single point of support would help to mitigate these deleterious affects. In addition, the EMT installation in question may be used as an equipment grounding conductor and any loosening that could occur would serve to compromise the equipment grounding function of the raceway. 300.11 further requires that raceways be securely fastened in place. I would assert that this proposal would conflict with the requirements of 300.11. In summation, depending on connectors, double locknuts etc. to support and secure this up to 36 in. installation especially where concentric or eccentric knockouts are encountered is dubious at best. 36 in. should provide ample space in which to install normal supporting and securing hardware. A proposal involving a shorter distance and where no concentric or eccentric knockouts are encountered may be in order.
________________________________________________________________
8-57 Log #784 NEC-P08 Final Action: Accept
(358.30(C))
____________________________________________________________
Submitter: David G. Humphrey, Midlothian, VA
Comment on Proposal No: 8-104
Recommendation:
Revise text to read as follows:
Where oversized, concentric or eccentric knockouts are not encountered, Type EMT shall be permitted to be unsupported where the raceway is not more than 900 mm (3 ft) 450 mm (18 in.) and remains in unbroken lengths (without coupling). Such raceways shall terminate in an outlet box, device box, cabinet, or other termination at each end of the raceway.
Substantiation: The existing text does not address issues that could have a direct negative impact on the durability of the installation. The affects of weight and vibration of the raceway, especially with larger raceway sizes, may cause loosening at the raceway termination points. This loosening
would certainly impose an impediment to the raceways ability to safely carry the maximum fault current likely to be imposed on the raceway. Reducing the length to 450 mm (18 in.) would half the weight of the raceway in the current text, and still provide ample room to install normal supporting and securing hardware for longer lengths.
Prohibiting unsupported raceways where oversized, concentric, or eccentric knockouts are encountered would serve to maintain the integrity of the equipment grounding function of the raceway. In summation, the proposed revised text would meet the submitter’s intent and address system durability issues.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11 Negative: 1
Explanation of Negative:
GRIFFITH, M.: Panel action on this Comment should have been to “Reject” rather than to “Accept” for the following reasons:
1. The new language suggesting an 18 in. limit completely changes the intent of the original proposal which was to clarify a widespread practice in industry that is already implied to be acceptable by existing code language and for which there is no evidence to change.
2. The spacing of 18 in. is new material that has not had public review and is not substantiated.
3. The limitation to installations “where oversized...knockouts are not encountered” has not been substantiated. In addition, concerns about knockouts can be addressed by any of several installation methods representing good workmanship that result in adequate support.
Panel action on the original Proposal 8-104 should continue to apply.
 
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don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
In the 2011 code cycle the rule was deleted. Not that this submitted states that the rule in the 2008 required additional supports there were not required in the 2005 code. I don't agree, and believe that the current rule requires a support on nipples that are so short that it would be physically impossible to install a support on.
8-125 Log #2204 NEC-P08 Final Action: Accept
(358.30(C))
_______________________________________________________________
Submitter: James W. Carpenter, International Association of Electrical
Inspectors
Recommendation: Delete this provision. Also, delete the clause “or permitted to be unsupported in accordance with 358.30(C)” from the last sentence of 358.30.
Substantiation: The concept of a special support rule for short lengths of raceway run between enclosures of various sorts was added to the 2008 NEC for the first time in the history of the NEC with negligible technical substantiation and no evidence of loss experience, and remains at variance
from routine trade practice. The existence of a coupling now immediately provokes a support requirement, even on a 6-inch and a 4-inch long heavy-wall 4 trade size steel nipples put together to make an 11-inch (approx.) combined raceway. A 90 degree sweep roughly 2 trade size or larger (any centerline length over 18 in.) now requires intermediate support. The literal text now requires support to structure on a 3-in. nipple if even one of its ends “encounters” a concentric knockout.
Although there are those who believe the new rule simply offers limited relief from a rule that required all raceways to be independently supported,
routine field experience throughout the history of rigid raceway wiring methods does not substantiate such assertions. We are unaware of any significant attempts to require supports on short nipples. All rigid raceways under NEC rules must be listed, including their couplings; is it conceivable that a coupling between two segments of a short (3 ft or less) nipple so seriously degrades the stability of the raceway that such a support is needed? Concentric knockouts in enclosures are reviewed as part of the UL 50 process, and as anyone working these enclosures recently should be aware, those standards have been strengthened and these knockouts are now more robust than in previous decades; is this the time to require even more support?
Raceways generally require support within 3 ft of terminations, and when the entire length is just that long or shorter, no additional support should be needed. In effect, the locknuts and bushings or connectors and locknuts at each end are supports. This is not a new concept for the NEC: CMP 7 just added the wording “(wiring method) fittings shall be permitted as a means of cable support” in a number of cable articles. If carried to its logical conclusion and routinely enforced (however unlikely), this new support rule will likely drive the market in the direction of cabled wiring methods without any technical justification.
It should be remembered that supports to structure are not infallible. Many raceways hang from threaded rod of indefinite length every 10 ft or so and within 3 ft (5 ft. in some cases) of enclosures, depending on the specific rules for the size and character of the supported raceway. Such support clearly meets the rules in this section, but would it add anything to a nipple between enclosures? Further, even when rigid supports such as one-hole clips are used, the raceway beyond the last clip can have an indefinite number of couplings and enter the center knockout of an indefinite number of concentric knockouts; how is this arrangement so inherently more secure than a nipple between enclosures? This new NEC provision was without precedent, and addressed a nonexistent problem.
Panel Meeting Action: Accept
Panel Statement: CMP-8 does not necessarily agree with the submitter’s substantiation. Securement requirements are found in 358.30(A).
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 11 Negative: 1
Explanation of Negative:
GRIFFITH, M.: See my explanation of negative vote on Proposal 8-24a.
Comment on Affirmative:
DABE, J.: See my statement for 8-24(a).
 
This is exactly the kind of nonsense that drives me crazy and why I have come to have so much hatred for the NEC. Put a rule in that makes sense, then fret over it and change it next cycle. Give us a damn exception for nipple support - pick a damn length, define it finally, and move on. I hate that organization intensely. Sorry, I just can't stand it anymore.
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
Occupation
retired electrician
This is exactly the kind of nonsense that drives me crazy and why I have come to have so much hatred for the NEC. Put a rule in that makes sense, then fret over it and change it next cycle. Give us a damn exception for nipple support - pick a damn length, define it finally, and move on. I hate that organization intensely. Sorry, I just can't stand it anymore.
Yet outsiders write the code and none of the CMP members are employees of the NFPA.

In this case, the opposition was from the IAEI and since they represent the people doing the inspections, their opinions hold a lot of weigh with the CMP members.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
Yet outsiders write the code and none of the CMP members are employees of the NFPA.
I think there's more to it than that. There are too many decent proposals that get passed up or mangled and too many new rules that get accepted with no substantiation lead me to believe it's an insider's game.
In this case, the opposition was from the IAEI and since they represent the people doing the inspections, their opinions hold a lot of weigh with the CMP members.
Mr. Carpenter's argument seems to say that before there was an exception to supports for short lengths of conduit life was just fine because the code as written wasn't enforced, "We are unaware of any significant attempts to require supports on short nipples." What sense does that make?
 
Yet outsiders write the code and none of the CMP members are employees of the NFPA.

I think there's more to it than that. There are too many decent proposals that get passed up or mangled and too many new rules that get accepted with no substantiation lead me to believe it's an insider's game.
And I know that NFPA employees don't come up with the codes and proposals, but this whole thing is their baby so I hold them 100% accountable for the nonsense....they should come up with a better process.
 

tom baker

First Chief Moderator
Staff member
The orginal proposal was submitted by Ryan Jackson for Mike Holt. Ryan wanted to clarify the support requirements. There was a lot of ink used to explain the change. One comment was the difference in supporting a 18” long 1/2 EMT vs 18” long 4” RMC
 
The orginal proposal was submitted by Ryan Jackson for Mike Holt. Ryan wanted to clarify the support requirements. There was a lot of ink used to explain the change. One comment was the difference in supporting a 18” long 1/2 EMT vs 18” long 4” RMC
But there is no difference in support distances for different EMT sizes with the existing rules. Plus the distance of support from box and distance between support were certainly pulled out of a hat anyway so just pick a distance and lets move on.

I am all for technical substantiations, but for some of this stuff there isnt really a way to scientifically design the distance, you just have to pick something.
 

letgomywago

Senior Member
Location
Washington state and Oregon coast
Occupation
residential electrician
I'm with the sentiment that the real problem is the churn of the rules.
I'm ok with keeping up with the times though. If it didn't we'd be stuck with fuses and no 90° insulation and no liquid tight. In general I think things could chill and stablelize better like it was but even 40 years ago there was constant fretting and changing about gfis and 100 years ago there was with Carter 3 ways and fusing the nuetral. These now looking back seem common sense but to many at the time it didnt.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
And I know that NFPA employees don't come up with the codes and proposals, but this whole thing is their baby so I hold them 100% accountable for the nonsense....they should come up with a better process.
I agree. When you read through the stuff that Don posted you wonder if some of these people have real world experience with the code that they get to adopt.

As far as the original unbroken length requirement that is nonsense too. If the first support is within 3' I can have 10-3" nipples connected by couplings yet if that is 3' between two boxes it has to be unbroken. That's just silly.
 

Bill Snyder

NEC expert
Location
Denver, Co
Occupation
Electrical Foreman
This is exactly the kind of nonsense that drives me crazy and why I have come to have so much hatred for the NEC. Put a rule in that makes sense, then fret over it and change it next cycle. Give us a damn exception for nipple support - pick a damn length, define it finally, and move on. I hate that organization intensely. Sorry, I just can't stand it anymore.
I will be interested to see why it could be passed or failed all my proposals this cycle are pretty straight forward for 2026.
 
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