NM cable in nonmetalic flex

[marinesgt0411]

lets see on my truck inventory

#18 #14 #12 #10 #8 #6 black THHN
#18 #14 #12 #10 red THHN
#18 #14 #12 #10 blue THHN
#18 #14 #12 #10 white THHN
#18 #14 #12 #10 #8 green THHN
#18 #14 #12 #10 brown THHN
#18 #14 #12 #10 orange THHN
#18 #14 #12 #10 Yellow THHN
#18 #12 purple THHN
#18 #12 pink THHN
12-2 MC black/white,brown/grey,yellow/grey
12-3 MC black/red/white,brown/orange/grey,brown/yellow/grey
12-4 MC black/red/blue/white,brown/orange/yellow/grey
Cat-5E cable
two rolls galvinized tie wire

that is a list of the wire I carry on my van
Now they come up with this newfanggled wire called ROMEX that when I need some I go to the supply house and get it

 

[allenwayne]

Again Larry I have to ask with what do you back the statement that outdoors inside conduit is outdoors and a wet enviorment???We can only use what the NEC has written to back a statement in this.It does have in conduit underground will have conductors rated for a wet location.But until you can give an actual article that forbids using NM inside LFNMC the answer to the OP will still have to be it is OK to use.I usually have a few rolls of wire to use but thats just so I don`t have to strip sheathing and remark a white wire.But the OP was CAN NM be used and no matter what we have on a truck or what we would rather use the answer is still yes it can be used :wink:

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

For any job, there is no need for a tractor trailer truck... just job planning. Part of every day/job should be planning. That is how JIT got started.

 

[George Stolz]

Who has THHN on a residential work truck for crying out loud.

I just keep two non-fusible 60A A/C disconnects, and two #10 A/C whips in my van, just in case. Doesn't take up much room, and I'm not dropping rolls of THHN on their side once a week when I shuffle past them. 8)

Pierre, what's JIT?

 

[allenwayne]

Larry can you show me where it states that within liquid tite out doors it is considered a damp / moist/ wet area???The NEC does show us that if in pipe and underground the conductors must be rated for a wet location,but I have tried to find where it states that if within flexible non metalic conduit that is not installed underground the conductors must be wet location rated.

Allen, you seem to be under the impression that watertight raceways are watertight. :roll:

100 - Water tight.Constructed so that MOISTURE will not enter the enclosure under specified test conditions.
356.10 (2)Where protection of the CONTAINED CONDUCTORS is required from vapors liquids,or solids

If they are considered protected then NM can be used in LFNMC.

 

[JohnE]

We've had a similar discussion before. The consensus is that conductors installed in raceways in wet locations need to be listed for wet locations. this eliminates the need to argue what is "outdoors".

edit typo

 

[colosparker]

For any job, there is no need for a tractor trailer truck... just job planning. Part of every day/job should be planning. That is how JIT got started.

You can plan for everything, but the reality is that you always forget something. That's why we have Home Depot!

 

[dlhoule]

Wouldn't the air inside the piece of liquidtight have to be considerably cooler than air on the outside of the liquidtight in order for condensation to appear? And wouldn't the condensation form on the outside of the liquidtight rather than inside the liquidtight? Enquiring minds want to know

When the morning sun hits the liquidtite, do you think the outside will stay cooler than the inside?

 

[ramsy]

Pierre, what's JIT?

"Just-In-Time" inventory management, was considered a competative advantage of Japanese Manufacturers until adopted globally around the 1990's. By refusing to make, package, or inventory any widget before orders are placed, floor space, lack of sales, and rework costs for spec. errors, were the primary savings.

From my previous life in business schools, I never heard of JIT operated service vehicles. Perhaps an exception could be made for common fittings & hardware, otherwise nothing would be allowed onboard unless specified by the job or customer, and anything left over would be cleaned out each day.

 

[jwelectric]

Re: NM cable in nonmetalic flex

Does the NEC prohibit the use of NM cable in liquidtight flexible nonmetallic conduit? An example would be using NM cable from a disconnect to an air conditioning unit.

Let?s forget that the installation is outside and constitutes a wet location and that NM cable is not allowed to be installed in a wet location.

Let?s not get into a debate about whether or not the installation is wet, damp or dry, let?s just look at another section that George Stolz has pointed out in another thread and see if there is another reason why this installation would not pass.

310.5(C) Cables. Where cable is used, each cable shall be secured to the cabinet, cutout box, or meter socket enclosure.

If this NM cable is installed in a raceway and that raceway is connected to the disconnect on one end and the AC unit on the other, how will the cable then be connected to the enclosures?
This in itself would be a violation of the NEC.

 

[eric stromberg]

Wouldn't the air inside the piece of liquidtight have to be considerably cooler than air on the outside of the liquidtight in order for condensation to appear? And wouldn't the condensation form on the outside of the liquidtight rather than inside the liquidtight? Enquiring minds want to know

Here on the Gulf Coast, it is possible. (Happens all the time)

The humidity down here is the stuff of which legends are made.

If you have half a tank of gas in your car, the other half filled with Gulf Coast Air, sometimes when night falls and the temperature drops, the outside of the tank is cooled, but the warm air is on the inside. In this case, the condensation forms on the inside.

Same thing happens with electrical conduit. Condensation occurs on the 'warm' side.

I was working in an electrical room once and there was a steady drip coming from a 3" conduit that was routed through the parking garage on the other side of the wall. The conduit brought the warm air in from the garage and once the conduit was immersed in the air-conditioning, condensation formed on the inside of the conduit. The water travelled down to the next joint and dripped out. There was quite a puddle on the floor.

[This installation was in violation of NEC 300.7(A)]

Eric

 

[LarryFine]

Mike, that infers that cables in general cannot be run in conduits in general. Certain exceptions aside, I agree with you.

On a specific note, we had a small apartment building with 1/2" NM flex penetrating the roof in "pitch pockets". Since we used NM cable throughout, we just 2-screw-and-locknut cable-clamped the NM into female adapters glued to the flex, just below the roof.

The inspector had no problem with the conductors, as long as we stripped the sheath from the NM before the flex hit the roof. In other words, we stripped right past the clamps, inside the flex. His view was that it's no longer NM cable. We didn't need J-boxes.

 

[chicar]

When rehabing houses in Cleveland,if the basement ceiling is 7ft or higher;romex through joists. If lower;conduit. I owned a F-150 with a raised floor for conduit and ground rods. Had shelves with a little bit of everything including thhn wire.
Using the right meterials for the right job is also part of the N.E.C. under 110.11 Unless identified for use in the operating environment.
Besides, using thhn will make it look like your a pro in your trade.
Be proud to sign your name on your work.

 

[George Stolz]

Larry, I'd say that violated 300.18(A), 310.8(C), 300.15, and 310.11.

The raceway was not complete between junction boxes, you changed wiring methods without a junction box. The NM conductors aren't rated for wet locations. The conductors were not marked as required throughout 310.11. 300.15 says that fittings and connectors shall only be used with the specific wiring methods for which they were designed and listed. Somewhere in the LFNC - to - NM conversion, I'm pretty sure something went down.

On the flip side, if you were to say the NM cable was the wiring method, and LFNC was merely for physical protection, then I'd say it violated 334.12(B)(4), and 300.12. The sheath was not continuous.

But there is good news. I just saved a heap of money on car insurance by switching to Geico. :lol:

 

[tonyi]

A few years ago I got a coil of 12-3 NM from Southwire that had marked THHN/THWN conductors and a green, not bare ground.

Maybe I should have saved it and put it to the side for situations like this :lol:

 

[LarryFine]

George, I agree with you, but the inspector actually liked my "no-J-box" approach. I didn't argue.

In the same building, because the water main was being replaced with a 1.5" copper line, the inspector saw, with his own eyes, the 10'+ of pipe in contact with earth, and we only needed one (existing) ground rod for the 300a, 208/120v service.

 

[allenwayne]

A few years ago I got a coil of 12-3 NM from Southwire that had marked THHN/THWN conductors and a green, not bare ground.

Maybe I should have saved it and put it to the side for situations like this :lol:

Our purchasing agent must have known yours we had 100`s of those same insulated ground NM rolls.The piece guys worked into a frenzy when they got them.Me i thought it was kind of cool . :twisted:

 

[benaround]

Allenwayne,

Do you have the 05 Handbook? anyway article 100 location,wet. after the

definetion the insert says


"it is intended that the inside of a raceway in a wet location or a raceway installed underground be considered a wet location. Therefore,
any conductors contained therein would be required to be suitable for a wet location."

That's the best I can do for you.

 

[allenwayne]

Still under 02 so I will use that book :wink:

 

[jwelectric]

Still under 02 so I will use that book :wink:

Location, Wet. Installations under ground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.
It is intended that the inside of a raceway in a wet location or a raceway installed under ground be considered a wet location. Therefore, any conductors contained therein would be required to be suitable for wet locations.
See 300.6(C) for some examples of wet locations and 410.4(A) for information on luminaires installed in wet locations.
See patient care area in 517.2 for a definition of wet locations in a patient care area.