Ok troubleshooting wizards

[George Stolz]

YES, SIR! SORRY, SIR! IT WON"T HAPPEN AGAIN, SIR! [size=-2](not)[/size]

I'm sure the person who killed the girl in the link Bob posted had a sense of humor too.

I forgot to mention that I am among those of the contention a ground rod is required.

Code citation?

FWIW, I've been on hiatus from citing code longer than you've been in the trade.

Watch as I quiver at the length of your tenure.

If in all likelihood, objectionable current will result, so enlighten yourselves with with 250.6(A, B)...

Psst...Click here.

Chief, I make stupid statements every now and then. And then one of the very smart, experienced folks step in and correct me. And I thank them. If they didn't correct me, I would not learn, and I appreciate their effort in teaching me.

If you are simply going to entrench yourself and defend every single half-thought-out sentence you make, regardless of how false it is, your experience here is going to be short-lived and frustrating. If you can humble yourself for five seconds and admit, "I goofed when I said that," then it will likely be long and enjoyable.

I'm not talking about this argument. I'm talking about this month. Take a deep breath and start over, please.

JMO,

 

[Smart $]

Good night, George.

 

[iwire]

FWIW, I've been on hiatus from citing code longer than you've been in the trade.

That fact by itself is not worth much, but it does explain why you are stuck thinking a ground rod will fix any problem.

 

[iwire]

Bob, apparently there was some disagreement with Mike Holt on the topic, I might be one of them.... Although I may or may not have made myself clear, I dont think a rod would eliminate this volage of 1.9 volt completley, it certainly would help IMO.

As Don has pointed out the ground rod will only effect the area close to the rod.

The rod will not drag the potential of the dock down to the earth it will raise the potential of the earth around the rod to the potential of the dock.

Add as many rods as you want and once you move away from those rods the dock will be at an elevated potential in relation to the earth not near the rods.

I am well aware that the link I provided was about higher voltages but the theory does not change. If anything the rod is more effective with higher voltages than lesser voltages.

I do agree with you that separate structures do require grounding electrodes.

 

[George Stolz]

To be clear, there's no seperate structure with a panel on the dock, from what I understand:

 

[iwire]

To be clear, there's no seperate structure with a panel on the dock, from what I understand:

George to me it sounds like a feeder supplying pedestals on the dock which is a separate structure.

Marina Power and light power centers with a light and GFI receptacle only (no shore power for boats, they are small boats). Panel is about 150? from the ramp to the floating docks. Ramp is aluminum. I ran 4 #6?s (cu.) in PVC and non-metallic flex from the existing panel to the dock and loop fed the power centers with ? of the pedestals on one circuit and the other ? on the other (used 30-amp breakers).

The fact he used 30 amp breakers suggest that the pedestals have OCP in them to protect the GFCI receptacles.

 

[Smart $]

That fact by itself is not worth much, but it does explain why you are stuck thinking a ground rod will fix any problem.

Actually the fact isn't worth anything as I present it to you free of charge

There is an extreme contrast between the fact and what you seem to believe it explains. You couldn't be more wrong. I'm damn well quite sure what a well-placed, squarely-driven, effectively-bonded ground rod will cure, though.

 

[George Stolz]

Bob, disregard (for the most part) the PM I just sent you.

George to me it sounds like a feeder supplying pedestals on the dock which is a separate structure.

Or...are each of the marine power outlets a structure...?

That was rhetorical, I don't even want to think about that.

The fact he used 30 amp breakers suggest that the pedestals have OCP in them to protect the GFCI receptacles.

If these conductors are in fact feeders to panelboards (inside the power outlets at the dock), then I stand corrected; a Grounding Electrode System is required to be used/installed at the structure.

Cough! Cough! I just admitted an error! I'm still breathing! Whoo!

 

[George Stolz]

I'm damn well quite sure what a well-placed, squarely-driven, effectively-bonded ground rod will cure, though.

Sore throats?

 

[hardworkingstiff]

The fact he used 30 amp breakers suggest that the pedestals have OCP in them to protect the GFCI receptacles.

Very astute Bob. That is exactly correct. Each power center has a 20-amp breaker that feeds the light and GFCI receptacle.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

It appears since these are feeders that there is no question that a ground rod is required. Do we also need to install a disconnect?

BTW, this job was required to have "Engineered drawings" and was inspected by the AHJ.

 

[ramsy]

It appears since these are feeders that there is no question that a ground rod is required

BTW, hardworkingstiff when do you plan to install the rod(s) and tell us the results, or check the open disconnect & lifted svc.neutral for current/harmonics?

 

[George Stolz]

I'd say technically a disconnect is required, 225.31.

Lou, can you describe what's on the dock in more detail? I feel the urge to doodle more.

And for Pete's sake, do something already and tell us what happened!

 

[hardworkingstiff]

I'd say technically a disconnect is required, 225.31.

Lou, can you describe what's on the dock in more detail? I feel the urge to doodle more.

And for Pete's sake, do something already and tell us what happened!

This is the fixture on the dock:
http://www.marinapower.com/content/marinaproducts/hatteras.html

I'm waiting for the PoCo to finish their testing and report back to me. Then I go to the homeowners association and report to them. Then ... ?

Before I met with PoCo, I talked with the Chief Electrical inspector. He did not seem very concerned, and told me there were more and more problems like this around pools. He thinks the new equipotential bonding is bringing it out. He told me how he suggested to another electrician that had a couple of volts issue around a pool (not sure of the details) to drive another ground rod. He did and the voltage issue became higher (sure wish I knew what that problem was).

Anyway, I'll let you know just a soon as I hear/do something. Right now I'm not authorized nor mandated to do anything.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

BTW, hardworkingstiff when do you plan to install the rod(s) and tell us the results, or check the open disconnect & lifted svc.neutral for current/harmonics?

Sorry for my ignorance ramsy, but could you explain to me how to check for harmonics? I saw it somewhere, but don't know where it is.

Thanks.

 

[ramsy]

..could you explain to me how to check for harmonics?

A simple mA function of a digital multi meter (DMM) shows if any current is present, harmonics or otherwise. Wiggy's work for this at full voltages, but perhaps not at ~1.9vac.

For the harmonic part, see if the Hz function on your DMM shows anything above 60Hz. Simple Hz meters show predominant magnitudes only. So if neutral harmonics are dominant, only multiples of 60 should be seen; either 120Hz, 180Hz, and so on.

Anything above a few hundred Hz is unusual for pwr harmonics, but if your meter goes up to 1000Hz+ such noise may perhaps be associated with communications leakage, local EM transmitters, solar events, etc.. Any harmonically added freqency could produce a current, found by a mA meter, regardless of your Hz range limits.

 

[ramsy]

Right now I'm not authorized nor mandated to do anything.

Would a sales pitch for another service call be out of order, to install the required grounding rod(s) / disconnect(s) for them, and perhaps ensure the leakage does not originate from a periodically lethal source?

It only takes ~10ma, and objectionable EGC's have been lethal in Baptismal pools, as recenly noted on this forum.

 

[hardworkingstiff]

Would a sales pitch for another service call be out of order, to install the required grounding rod(s) / disconnect(s) for them, and perhaps ensure the leakage does not originate from a periodically lethal source?

That is exactly what I intend to do as soon as PoCo says it's not their problem. IMO, I should not do anything until PoCo says they have tested their equipment, in case they do find something wrong.

 

[George Stolz]

A simple mA function of a digital multi meter (DMM) shows if any current is present, harmonics or otherwise. Wiggy's work for this at full voltages, but perhaps not at ~1.9vac.

What kind of Wiggy do you have? Mine only tests voltage.

I thought you needed a power quality analyzer to see harmonics? You can just use a regular DMM?

 

[ramsy]

Sorry George, since mikeholt.com search won't find key phrases, my hour long quest thru google's cach, to link a Fluke App.Guide on detecting harmonics without expensive meters, and a May 2006 discussion on mikeholt.com about poor mans harmonics meters was rudely interupted with the send button, as mikeholt.com forgot my log-in, forced me to re-log-in then erased everything.

The Mikeholt.com re-log-in is happening every time now, I can't stay logged in for 5 minutes to reply to a post, before having to start over. This time after fighting with mikeholt searches and broken links, only 2 months old, then losing everything, I am way to frustrated to do it all again.

This is a great forum and I really want to participate, but the simplest tasks have suddenly become so dificult with mikeholts recent web changes.

Next time I will try to compose everything in a seperate editor with a autobackup feature, before clicking any of mikeholts forum reply's, then quickly try a cut and paste into the forum editor.