Panel in the Clothes Closet

[deronmoped]

I just thought of something else, lets go by what some guys are saying, take "such as in a clothes closet", are you guys going to stick to what it says, or are you now going to redefine that sentance? It says "such as in a clothes closet", so as I read a set of plans and it says closet, not clothes closet, then a panel is ok in a closet. Or if the plans say a walk in closet, then a panel is ok there too. Does a set of plans have to say "Electrical closet" before some will say it is ok to install a panel?

When is a closet a clothes closet, are all closets clothes closets, are clothes closets allways in bedrooms. At some point a inspector will have to decide where it is ok to install a panel, because if he "only" uses the definition of "such as in a clothes closet", then is he going to say ok to all other closets.

Say you have a set of plans that shows a bedroom with a small closet, next to that bedroom is a hall and in this hall there is a large walk in closet. On the plans all it says is "closet" for both, it does not spell out a clothes closet. The electrician wants to install the panel in the large walk in closet, is it ok?

Deron.

 

[George Stolz]

I'm not quite sure why it got heated, but...

Deron, I agree it's not cut-and-dried. That's why this discussion has been several pages long.

The writers of the NEC are directed to avoid "vague and unenforceable language", but sometimes they slip. There is no reason to get worked up over it.

 

[deronmoped]

George

Do not take me wrong, I'm not worked up over this discussion, I love the back and forth, otherwise it's just boring old, put me to sleep talk.

I like to open up peoples minds to other ways of thinking about things, did not someone say "rules are ment for breaking".

Deron.

 

[deronmoped]

Here is something else to think about. In class III locations (easily ignitible fibers or materials) panels can be located there.

I know, I know, class III locations are not clothes closets.

I think the whole problem is that there is problems with panels in "older style clothes closets". The type that has the clothes right up against the panel, you have to push the clothes out of the way to get to the panel. Jump forward in time to the present when alot of clothes closets are big as small rooms, where storage of clothes only takes up a portion of the clothes closet. Time to update the writing of "such as in a clothes closet" to "such as in a clothes closet where the design of the closet puts the panel in the vicinity of easily ignitible materials". I guess it does say that already, but it needs to be spelled out that way.

Deron.

 

[dnem]

On some remodels or revisions location often is a problem that requires allowances.

This is a new building, and design is not exactly and inspectors big worry. I'd tell them to spin the panel around and let it face in to the room.
Brian, I assume your in plan review stage. I'd tell them to turn it.

You want him to turn the panel to face into the bedroom ? . Talk about ugly ! . I can imagine the reaction of a woman to that. . If I think it's nasty looking, I know it would be twice as bad to a woman. . Do you think you have even a small chance of getting that past the woman of the house ?

Deron, welcome to the forum.

I think that a luminaire is a constant source of moderate heat.

A panelboard could be a source of extreme heat during a fault. That panelboard could sit there behind the rod with clothes packed up against it forever under normal conditions will no ill effect, true.

But now cast a flash out the face of the panelboard on a combustible shirt...

The dreaded arc flash.

Thanks for the welcome, happy to be here.

Why would the description of a storage area in a closet only apply to lights, does the definition of the stroage area change when there is a subpanel or any other electrical item in there? My understanding of a description is it applies in all cases.

I will agree that a panel that has no covers on it and has a major fault occur could start a fire if it is close enough to combustionable materials. But, why does the code go into so much detail about a closet and the location of a light if a lights are only moderate sources of heat? I'm thinking these lights in closets were and still are (if not installed properly) a big problem with fires.

You?re getting close to hitting on a major issue when you say: ?a panel that has no covers on it and has a major fault occur could start a fire if it is close enough to combustionable materials.?

I actually would think a closet would be a better place to have a exploding panel. I mean would you rather have it next to your bed as you are sleeping so you can get sparyed with molten metal and plastic? Would you want to be the combustionable? Panels are installed in bedrooms all the time, if they are such a problem and a source of fires would you want your inspector saying "The babies room is a perfect location for a fire to start." NOT!

You started to address the major issue in post #37, before but then you missed it. . I don?t think panels explode while people are sleeping but there is a serious arc flash issue when working on electrical equipment. . Most equipment can be deenergized for servicing, but panels are the leading category of equipment that is worked on hot. . The calorie energy available at many commercial panels is so high that protection level designation, based on calories available, is required to be ?field marked? [110.16] on non-dwelling unit panels. . Residential projects might have less energy available to a fault explosion but those working on those panels are rarely ever properly protected and commonly have untrained workers and homeowners sticking tools into them.

You?re not in ?your bed as you are sleeping so you can get sparyed with molten metal and plastic?. . The panel cover is off and the tools are out and the fault sends a ball of flame into you and into the room. . If it?s not bad enough to be burned by the fire and blinded by the flash, your cotton Tshirt continues to burn. . But what if it?s not just the Tshirt burning ? . What if the entire combustible contents of the closet is roaring around you while your still blinded ?

Even an uneducated homeowner would most likely move a gas can away from a panel in the garage before working on it. . But how many people would take all the time needed to empty a packed closet before sticking their hands in the panel ?

I just thought of something else, lets go by what some guys are saying, take "such as in a clothes closet", are you guys going to stick to what it says, or are you now going to redefine that sentance? It says "such as in a clothes closet", so as I read a set of plans and it says closet, not clothes closet, then a panel is ok in a closet. Or if the plans say a walk in closet, then a panel is ok there too. Does a set of plans have to say "Electrical closet" before some will say it is ok to install a panel?

When is a closet a clothes closet, are all closets clothes closets, are clothes closets allways in bedrooms. At some point a inspector will have to decide where it is ok to install a panel, because if he "only" uses the definition of "such as in a clothes closet", then is he going to say ok to all other closets.

Say you have a set of plans that shows a bedroom with a small closet, next to that bedroom is a hall and in this hall there is a large walk in closet. On the plans all it says is "closet" for both, it does not spell out a clothes closet. The electrician wants to install the panel in the large walk in closet, is it ok?

Deron.

That?s a judgment call. . But I think it?s best to have some clear guidelines so that there won?t be variations of application based on the mood of the inspector or relationship with the contractor. . Also clear guidelines allow the contractor to know and be ready for inspection.

In my opinion, I use 3 criteria for deciding.
A closet in a bedroom is a clothescloset.
A closet with a bar hanger is a clothescloset.
And finally a closet that?s designated as a clothescloset is a clothescloset.

David

 

[charlie b]

I do not know the intent of the author(s) of the article in question. But I can comment on the manner in which the words are written.

ADVANCE WARNING: I am going to side with the “No prohibition against panels in clothes closet” group.

I base my opinion on the following concept related to the structure of the English language. The fundamental structure of a sentence begins with a subject, a verb, and an object. To that, you can add phrases and clauses and a host of modifiers. But when you have a few words, then you add a “joining” or “looking back” sort of word, and then you follow with some more words, that part in the middle (the “joining” or “looking back” part) will refer the reader to (or remind the reader of) the words that immediately precede it. They do not refer back to other words that appear earlier in the sentence.

Example:

I went for a walk with my girlfriend and my dog that I brought home from the pound.

In this example, the “joining” word is “that.” In the sentence, the word “that” refers you back to the dog (the word immediately preceding), and not to the girlfriend (a word that appears earlier in the sentence).

Now to NEC 240.24(D). The “looking back” phrase here is “such as in.”

I submit, for your contemplation, that the words, “such as in” refer you back to the phrase, “easily ignitable material.” They do not refer you back to the phrase, “shall not be located in.” The words are, “easily ignitable materials . . . in clothes closets.” The words are not, “overcurrent devices shall not be located . . . in clothes closets.”

The written message (regardless of whether this is the intended message) is this: There is likely to be some easily ignitable materials in clothes closets, and it is our job to make sure the overcurrent devices are not in the vicinity of such materials.

So what does “in the vicinity of” mean? To my mind, if you close the panel door, the overcurrent devices are no longer in the vicinity of anything but the inside of the door. As far as 240.24(D) is concerned, I can pile up as much clothing as I want in front of the panel door. I can put a coat hook over the panel, and hang as many coats as I like. True, there is another section of the NEC (110.26) that would call such behavior a “no-no.” But 240.24(D) does not.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I haven't had an english lesson in 35 years but I will say this-- it is a very difficult language to understand and to write intelligibly.
The semantics will drive you crazy. What we need is access to the cmp and have the ability to ask them exactly what they meant. I bet if you ask 10 members of the panel you will get a mix of answers.

 

[iwire]

Regardless of the NEC requirements strangers clothes closets often smell funky and I don't want to stand in that funk to troubleshoot the panel, lets keep the panels in the fresh air.

 

[charlie b]

Now that's as good a design criterion as any I have ever heard. LOL. :grin:

 

[mpd]

I had a situation a couple a years ago, contractor installed an electrical panel in a clothes closet, plans showed it as a clothes closet, after I failed it, we received a revised set of plans from the architect that showed it as closet for the electrical panel, I know what it will be used for, but I am covered if anything ever happens

 

[deronmoped]

David is right, most of the problems with panels are going to be when they are being worked on by a electrician or home owner. Who's idea was it to require a panel to be accessible to a home owner:-? Most people would probably be safer if they did not know where the panel was. I was looking at a job once and this old lady wanted something done about her big 240 VAC AC plug, she had it pulled it out to show me, when she went to plug it back in she reached all the way around the plug with her hand, shocked the @#$% out of herself before I could stop her. Put the panel where it can not be found by the average Joe.

That brings up something else, ever been a kid or toddler? Alot of parents put the little plug things in so kids will not stick things in the sockets. Can you image if you were so lucky to have the panel in your bedroom as a kid during your exploring phase or the experimental phase. I know I would have though of all kinds of cool things to do with the panel. I remember the time my older brother pluged a speaker into a outlet, I used to blow up diodes by plugging them in. A panel would have been a whole mess of fun. As I got older I would probably have hid my dirty magazines in there :roll:

Deron.

 

[M. D.]

Thanks for the laugh Deron, I think a closet for clothes can be large enough to meet the requirement , I just wired a closet that was about 10X12 about the size of a small bedroom surley there is a place in this clothes room for a panel.

 

[dnem]

Who's idea was it to require a panel to be accessible to a home owner:-? Most people would probably be safer if they did not know where the panel was. I was looking at a job once and this old lady wanted something done about her big 240 VAC AC plug, she had it pulled it out to show me, when she went to plug it back in she reached all the way around the plug with her hand, shocked the @#$% out of herself before I could stop her. Put the panel where it can not be found by the average Joe.

The homeowner needs access to tripped breakers. . But there might be a chance of using panel cover screws with tamperproof heads. . Or?..

We could even go hightech and put in a code proposal for a retinal scan and DNA match before a wall swivels around and reveals a lock. . The key for the lock has to be turned at the same time as an interlocked key at the local building department and another at the local IRS office. . Coordination by speakerphone conference call, of course.

David

 

[dnem]

Regardless of the NEC requirements strangers clothes closets often smell funky and I don't want to stand in that funk to troubleshoot the panel, lets keep the panels in the fresh air.

I've done inspections in every type of living condition that there is. . The cluttered or even filthy ones don't bother me but the ones with a stench are horrible. . Even a light funk is repulsive. . But there?s nothing light about the smell that permeates some houses. . Some of these houses are so thick with the odor of their living conditions that I've actually had a gag reflect walking in the door.

I?ve done whole inspections with my shirt pulled up over my mouth and nose. . Of course I retreat to my truck to write my report and stick it to the outside of the glass on their front door while my engine is idling.

David

 

[electricmanscott]

Who's idea was it to require a panel to be accessible to a home owner:-?

Put the panel where it can not be found by the average Joe.

You mess around with electricity and get yourself killed you won't do it again. That'll learn ya!