'Proof' that AFCI devices really locate arcs.

Status
Not open for further replies.

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
So your solution seems to be swap the gimmick of their choosing with another gimmick of your choosing that adds labor and complexity to each installation.

Sorry that is no solution.

Well there's always Earth Fault Loop Impedance testing route Iwire :lol:

Your truck has to pass annual inspections, how many electrical installs that haven't seen a sparky since the Eisenhower administration would you assume passable if it were legislated mandatory in this country tomorrow? :)

~RJ~
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Look at it like this, if they really want to feel good and accomplish something might as well make code changes that can at least prevent some fires rather then require something even more expensive which prevents nothing.


For example: GFCIs are already mandated, evolved and proven. The 30ma GFP in older AFCIs has caught a lot of sloppy work. The NEC could have just required GFCIs in place of AFCI and everyone would have been happy. Perhaps not ideal for many, but far more common sense.
Ditto!
 

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
I was personally present when a HO pulled on a vacuum cord and the wall receptacle came out of the wall and an arc ensued. The arc, flames and all, started to scorch the panel board wall and I had to run to the electrical panel and switch the circuit breaker; while the HO just stood watching the arc and the flame grow:eek:hmy: She later siad the arc must have lasted at least 5 to 10 seconds.

An actual arc as in jumping between two conductors with an air space between them, or burning and sparking wiring?


Sounds more like that was a dead short and the breaker refused to trip.

I wasn't there to see it but I did get to see the damage that was done when the same thing happened.

New double-wide mobile home. Homeowner useing a vacuum cleaner and the motor on the vacuum locked up and the breaker wouldn't trip. I think the main was the first breaker to trip or maybe the cord burned out. You could see where the cord burned into the carpet and on the wall above the receptacle.

My opinion was that it was a defective breaker or possibly a cheap knock-off ( manufactured in you-know -where).

I think the insurance company should really investigate things like this but often they find it cheaper just to pay for repairs.
 

donaldelectrician

Senior Member
Sounds more like that was a dead short and the breaker refused to trip.

I wasn't there to see it but I did get to see the damage that was done when the same thing happened.

New double-wide mobile home. Homeowner useing a vacuum cleaner and the motor on the vacuum locked up and the breaker wouldn't trip. I think the main was the first breaker to trip or maybe the cord burned out. You could see where the cord burned into the carpet and on the wall above the receptacle.

My opinion was that it was a defective breaker or possibly a cheap knock-off ( manufactured in you-know -where).

I think the insurance company should really investigate things like this but often they find it cheaper just to pay for repairs.




This is why I believe fuses are the best way to go for OCP . The Edison Based Fuse is the most reliable way to protect the circuits in my cabin . Also the cheapest . I do like GFCI's where required .

The AFCI Breaker is the worst thing to happen in the NEC and is forced on the people where as the rest of the NEC I feel is a benefit to the people . The cost of required AFCI's will only create a financial burden that will haunt the home owners forever as they age and need to be replaced . False trip service calls do to any number of reasons undermine the faith people have in their electricians . The AFCI Breakers are expanding to be required through out the home at the time when we should be getting these breakers removed from our electrical code .



Don
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
Sounds more like that was a dead short and the breaker refused to trip.

I wasn't there to see it but I did get to see the damage that was done when the same thing happened.

New double-wide mobile home. Homeowner useing a vacuum cleaner and the motor on the vacuum locked up and the breaker wouldn't trip. I think the main was the first breaker to trip or maybe the cord burned out. You could see where the cord burned into the carpet and on the wall above the receptacle.

My opinion was that it was a defective breaker or possibly a cheap knock-off ( manufactured in you-know -where).

I think the insurance company should really investigate things like this but often they find it cheaper just to pay for repairs.
The sad thing about breakers is they do what we want hem to do when we want them to do it. (If we doubt them we can always test thm againt their trip curve). This is because we have them a set of rules to play by, their time/current trip curve. They monitor the current that passes through them and if that current is outside the parameters of their trip curve, that require it will not trip. Arcing faults are an good example of such an event where there is a lot of action at the point of the fault, sparks smoke etc, but yet the current that the breaker sees is of no consiquence. I guess that was the intent of the AFCI technology, technology which appears to have turned out to be a big dud.
Thus the discussion as to how to address arcing as faults and glowing connections continues, trying to find some way to address a very elusive solution to this safety issue. The manufacturers took a shot at trying to identify an arc signature with the AFCI but that has ended up to be a dismal failure no matter how much smoke and mirrors the manufacturers use in my opinion.
And th beat goes on and on.
 
Last edited:

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
Well there's always Earth Fault Loop Impedance testing route Iwire :lol:

Your truck has to pass annual inspections, how many electrical installs that haven't seen a sparky since the Eisenhower administration would you assume passable if it were legislated mandatory in this country tomorrow? :)

~RJ~

We have never had a history of any kind of testing like that here in the USA and I don't believe for one second that it's necessary. I think it's a great idea to test your circuitry once installed, but it should not be mandated.

Once again, I will go back to my original premise that there was nothing so badly broken about our electrical system that demands all these gimmicky products and ideas.
 

mivey

Senior Member
Lets agree to disagree on this one. If you want you can draw me a picture or diagram you may. Maybe Im just not thinking past what was shown in the video: a simple 3 wire to 3 wire splice.
Not my picture but:
3512436_orig.png


The neutral bundles will now need a hot and ground brought to them. The hots will need a ground brought to them and may even need to be split into multiples connectors if there is a junction box with several hots under one wire nut.

The inventor doesn't have access nor work for billion dollar corporations. So he has to make do with what available. But come market you can bet Ideal industries or Eaton will make something top notch if they really wanted to.
Assume for a minute that they have already "top-notched" the wagos. Adding more functionality is going to cost some real-estate.
 

mivey

Senior Member
Mbrooke clearly has a power systems background than a straight, every day electrician one. But this is an engineer friendly forum so that shouldn't matter much.
Then let him speak with authority about power systems and speak with inquiry about the unfamiliar.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
The sad thing about breakers is they do what we want hem to do when we want them to do it. (If we doubt them we can always test thm againt their trip curve). This is because we have them a set of rules to play by, their time/current trip curve. They monitor the current that passes through them and if that current is outside the parameters of their trip curve, that require it will not trip. Arcing faults are an good example of such an event where there is a lot of action at the point of the fault, sparks smoke etc, but yet the current that the breaker sees is of no consiquence. I guess that was the intent of the AFCI technology, technology which appears to have turned out to be a big dud.
Thus the discussion as to how to address arcing as faults and glowing connections continues, trying to find some way to address a very elusive solution to this safety issue. The manufacturers took a shot at trying to identify an arc signature with the AFCI but that has ended up to be a dismal failure no matter how much smoke and mirrors the manufacturers use in my opinion.
And th beat goes on and on.

I think you make a good point and here is a little known fact: thermal magnetic breakers can successfully provide arc fault protection. The concept is even recognized and permitted by the NEC in 210.12 A (3).

The supplemental arc protection circuit breakers mentioned in 210.12 A (3) are listed under UL489e (molded case breakers) rather then UL1699 (AFCIs) since they have the same operating characteristics as a standard thermal magnetic breaker except a requirement for having a known magnetic trip level.




The theory:

The UL report states “breakers can be effective at mitigating arcing faults,
provided the available fault current can be guaranteed to exceed the magnetic
trip level of the circuit breaker by a factor of 1.25.”




The CMP commenting in the 2014 ROP also confirms this:


(b)The branch circuit breaker shall be listed and marked as having an
instantaneous trip not exceeding 300 amperes.

This proposal establishes a circuit breaker
listing and marking requirement for the magnetic trip level at or below 300A in
order to ensure the breaker will protect the circuit from a parallel arcing fault
when at least 500A of available fault current is present as required in the first
parameter.


LAROCCA, R.: While we support the panel action, continued support is
dependent upon review of additional data that would confirm the availability of
sufficient short circuit current capability at the panel of a typical installation.
The arc fault protection of the branch circuit will be provided by a system
that includes an outlet branch circuit AFCI, a circuit breaker having a known
instantaneous trip current
and a branch circuit of a limited length and resistance
to ensure that the fault current is sufficient to trip the breaker during a parallel
arcing fault at the installation point of the outlet branch circuit AFCI. The latest
UL Research Report takes into consideration the impact of the available current
at the panel on the acceptable length of the branch circuit home run to the first
outlet. Calculation shows that as the available current at the origin of the
branch circuit varies, so does the allowable length of the home run.
Additional study is needed to provide data regarding the current available at
the origin of the branch circuit in a typical installation. From this data, the
panel will be able to determine if modification of the panel action should be
considered at the ROC.


The report focused on providing data on the performance of conventional
circuit breakers with respect to arc faults in the home run portion of the branch

circuit and identified the parameters that must be met and controlled for this to
happen.
As long as these parameters are controlled, it can be concluded that an outlet
branch circuit type arc-fault circuit interrupter could possibly be used in
conjunction with a low-magnetic type circuit breaker to protect the branch
circuit
. The critical parameters summarized in the report include: a minimum
available fault current, a maximum magnetic trip level for the circuit breaker,
impedance of the conductor, the actual voltage and the length of the conductor.
This proposal is based on utilizing the parameters set forth by the UL Report
to revise 210.12 to permit using an outlet branch circuit arc-fault circuit
interrupter in conjunction with a low magnetic trip circuit breaker.



(2) A listed outlet branch circuit type arc-fault circuit interrupter installed at
the first outlet on the branch circuit where all of the following conditions are
met:
(a) The branch circuit over current protection device shall be a listed circuit
breaker having an instantaneous trip not exceeding 300 amperes.


(2) A listed outlet branch circuit type arc-fault circuit interrupter installed at the
first outlet on the branch circuit where all of the following conditions are met :
(a) The available fault current at the branch circuit overcurrent device shall not
be less than 500A and the ambient temperature shall not be less than 20°C
(68°F).
(b)The branch circuit breaker shall be listed and marked as having an
instantaneous trip not exceeding 300 amperes.

(c) The branch circuit wiring shall be continuous from the branch circuit
overcurrent device to the outlet branch circuit arc-fault circuit interrupter.
(d) The maximum length of the branch circuit wiring from the branch circuit
overcurrent device to the first outlet shall be determined using the following:
L = (0.4×Vrms) / (1.25×300×pL)
L is the maximum length of the “home run” in feet;
pL is the resistivity per unit foot of each conductor of the NM cable gauge
being used; and
Vrms is the actual supply voltage.


Can be found here starting at page 70-129 (139 in the viewer):


https://www.nfpa.org/Assets/files/AboutTheCodes/70/70-A2013-ROP.pdf


Three facts giving food for thought:

1. The values discussed here are a 300amp magnetic trip. For standard branch circuits in bedrooms, living rooms ect which typically have no major motor loads the magnetic trip can in theory be lowered further to 140amps. This will extend arc fault protection much further and with most occupancies have more than 500 amps of fault current available at the panel a typical 125ft run could be covered to the furthest point.

2. A 75 amp magnetic trip was proposed in the late 90s but rejected due to nuisance tripping concerns. This value could have been raised to at least 100amps, and in areas where nuisance tripping is a concern like garages and kitchens, could have instead been required to have a GFCI breaker at the branch circuit origin which ironically today's code calls for outlets to be GFCI protected in these areas.

3. In Europe and most other 230 volt countries Earth Fault Loop Impedance is designed into the circuit. Basically regulations require that current on a dead short circuit at the furthest point in the circuit must produce enough current to trip the breaker within 0.4 to 0.2 seconds on circuits 32 amps and under. In order for manufactures to comply with this requirement they insert a series solenoid in the breaker which lowers the magnetic trip threshold to about 5 to 7 times the handle rating. Because the furthest point of the circuit can magnetically trip the breaker the entire run is protected against both parallel and line to ground arc faults. Where the circuit is dedicated to motors (like an AC unit) with nuisance tripping being a concern a type "C" or "D" breaker can be selected having a much higher magnetic trip. This concept has been providing protection for more then 40 years in IEC based codes. So in other words AFCI protection existed long before and without a single transistor to nuisance trip.

Adding a solenoid coil to a breaker only costs a few bucks and can provide a similar level of protection as a $35 branch feeder AFCI. No reason why the NEC could not have applied this concept instead. Yet again code choose to take the most difficult unproven option.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
It was a strange path they took. Things that make you go: Huh?

See above, they took the absolute worst path.

For the sake of argument assuming the 30,000 home fire from arc fault claim is real that has yet to be ever proven other solutions could have been mandated to mitigate arc faults:


1. GFCIs/GFP at the branch circuit origin

2. low magnetic trip in breakers

3. Plug top fuses

4. Insulated staples

5. Insulation resistance testing of new wiring

6. Conduit or AC/MC cable in residential (as an option over other methods)



For Series arc faults:

1. Rigid metal boxes
2. GCI technology
3. Elimination of back stabs
4. Fail resistant crimp/solder connections
5. LCID cords (actually allowed for window AC units as an alternative to AFCI by the NEC)
6. screened cords (works best when paired with GFCI)
7. tougher cords

And I know Im leaving out others.

The NEC could have mandated some or all of these and letting electricians/manufacturers choose which ones to implement.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
Not my picture but:
3512436_orig.png


The neutral bundles will now need a hot and ground brought to them. The hots will need a ground brought to them and may even need to be split into multiples connectors if there is a junction box with several hots under one wire nut.

Assume for a minute that they have already "top-notched" the wagos. Adding more functionality is going to cost some real-estate.




Ok that might require an more advanced block that can take 4 hots. But for typical circuits this can perhaps explain it better:
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
Then let him speak with authority about power systems and speak with inquiry about the unfamiliar.

I'm pretty sure we have no right or ability to bind someone's words like that. That being said, I have opposed the thermal fusing idea from the moment it was mentioned.
 

peter d

Senior Member
Location
New England
See above, they took the absolute worst path.

For the sake of argument assuming the 30,000 home fire from arc fault claim is real that has yet to be ever proven other solutions could have been mandated to mitigate arc faults:


1. GFCIs/GFP at the branch circuit origin Good idea, much better than AFCI's

2. low magnetic trip in breakers Probably a bad idea

3. Plug top fuses Good idea as long as they are well made to a high standard

4. Insulated staples Good idea

5. Insulation resistance testing of new wiring Bad idea

6. Conduit or AC/MC cable in residential (as an option over other methods) Extremely bad idea



For Series arc faults:

1. Rigid metal boxes Bad idea
2. GCI technology Bad idea
3. Elimination of back stabs Very good idea
4. Fail resistant crimp/solder connections Ridiculous idea
5. LCID cords (actually allowed for window AC units as an alternative to AFCI by the NEC) On everything? Bad idea
6. screened cords (works best when paired with GFCI) On everything? Bad idea
7. tougher cords Good idea

And I know Im leaving out others.

The NEC could have mandated some or all of these and letting electricians/manufacturers choose which ones to implement.

Why should manufacturers have any influence whatsoever over this? :huh: That's how we got the whole AFCI debacle in the first place.
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Location
Vermont
Occupation
electrician
Larouche gets it.

After all the 210.12 fireworks , he's addressing the only viable safety factor in it

Lower mag trips trump arc technology

~RJ~
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
Why should manufacturers have any influence whatsoever over this? :huh: That's how we got the whole AFCI debacle in the first place.

But that proves my point, if arc faults really were a concern (they arent) the CMPs would have let us pick and choose from a laundry list of alternatives. A laundry list isnt as profitable as a specific device because rather then profit spreading in the case of AFCI makers it contained to a half a dozen companies.
 

mbrooke

Batteries Included
Location
United States
Occupation
Technician
Larouche gets it.

After all the 210.12 fireworks , he's addressing the only viable safety factor in it

Lower mag trips trump arc technology

~RJ~

In every way. Hence why other countries took that option 40 years ago.

I also want to address something else. Researching joule heating I came yet again across another weakness in AFCIs. The 5 amp series arc feature will not prevent fires because much to my surprise loose connection can start fires under 5 amps. So yet again...


http://fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build77/PDF/b77005.pdf
 

templdl

Senior Member
Location
Wisconsin
I think you make a good point and here is a little known fact: thermal magnetic breakers can successfully provide arc fault protection. The concept is even recognized and permitted by the NEC in 210.12 A (3).

The supplemental arc protection circuit breakers mentioned in 210.12 A (3) are listed under UL489e (molded case breakers) rather then UL1699 (AFCIs) since they have the same operating characteristics as a standard thermal magnetic breaker except a requirement for having a known magnetic trip level.

[/FONT][/FONT]
Again, Vour kind comments are appreciated. The following is another one of my long winded posts but never the less there may some merit.
My concern about arc faults is that term is not specific enough, a bit ambiguous.at best.
So often an arc will not draw enough current to approach the magnetic trip pickup of a TM breaker. And I am also to understand that the current goes down as the impedance of the arc increases the longer it persists. Am I correct? Arcs are not a good thing as they are unpredictable often not conducting enough current to trip a TM breaker. And to draw enough current trip a breaker thermaly would be would not be reasonable.
The only place in the NEC that I can think of that time tyo address faults is art 430 with mag only breakers as a part of a combo starter.
The OLR element/adjustment is a thermal element that protects the motor from an overload condition. The mag only breaker is described to provide ground fault protection interesting enough ref art 430-52. Mag only breakers in this application are referred to as MCPs, motor "circuit" protects who's job is to protect the motor circuit. MCPs were originally invented by Westinghouse to deduct the incidence of fires as a result of a failing motor which the commonly used fuse did a very poor job of preventing. Knowing that the LRA of the common motor is about 7x the FLA and that the inrush magnetizing current may be as much a 13x the FLA if we adjust the mag pickup just outside of those currents as to not cause nuisance tripping we can get close enough to a point where should one one the motor winding fasil and go to ground the fault can be sensed by the MCP and trip preventing the arc from escalating into a phase to phase fauld an a catastrophic failure.
I would !like to see this concept used in branch circuit protection but it is of my opinion that it would be difficult at best unless the mag mag calibration be reviewed.
What it boils down to is load center breaker have to be made very , very cheaply. As such it has been my experience with the product that I supported that they are made in groups such as 15, 20, and 30at have the same mag pickup because it would be cost prohibited to calibrate them separately.
The only manufacturer that I'm aware of that has reduced the mag calibration of their standard breaker is SqD while providing an optional highmag, the highmag I found to be the same as the C-H standard breaker, C-H offering an optional lowmag similar to SqDs std breaker which is something your mother never taught you I bet.
I do think that tasking a good look at the mag calibration of the 3/4 and 1" per pole breakers should be evaluated.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top