'Proof' that AFCI devices really locate arcs.

[peter d]

When a wire nut is put on without pre-twisting the issue arises that one of the conductors can be pushed down further then the others with the skirt hiding it.

I've never had that problem.

I pre-twist all my splices and then cap them.

I usually do as well, but sometimes I don't.

In most parts of the world terminal blocks and lever wagos are used to reduce the likely hood of this.

Who cares what the rest of the world does when we have a perfectly safe and functional product already?

If you guys find a temperature sensing wire nut bad, wait until you see what solution AFCI makers have for that Then you will see what impractical looks like :jawdrop:

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[mbrooke]

I don't know about this one. I'm old school but I'm not that old school. Reintroducing soldering/crimping to residential would present all sorts of problems as most people who wire houses today have no idea how to apply either safely to solid conductors> Most of the old solder kings have passed on.Most young ropers have no idea what a c24 is, (though it is still used and even required for crimping egcs in some locales) let alone how to use it correctly and the youngest of the men who lugged that tool and used it regularly to squeeze copper barrels around twisted solid cccs in the '50s and '60s are now collecting medicare. Many guys wouldn't even bother to purchase this tool anyway due to $$ and would end up using the crimp punch on their linemans-causing a bad connection.There is also no guarantee that either one these methods would done correctly-I remember hearing that one of the problems with the crimp method was that some guys squeezed the c24 too hard and would almost cut the wires in half-this method of tying togther cccs is NOT friendly to the unfamiliar and neither is soldering.

Next comes the issue of insulating those joints: Most ropers today have come up during a time when applying tape insulation to a joint isn't as common as it once was and as a result don't know how to tape a crimp/solder joint correctly or apply heat shrink-this is a huge reason why a return to these methods would worry me. They do sell caps for the crimps, but invariably many ecs will embrace scotch 700 or less ($$$).

Imo, while these are both good sound methods and they are still listed, much like shallow sectional boxes and the bracebits used before routing k&t, they also have their place in their rearview mirror or a museum when it comes to new residential-Be thankful for modern products.

Wirenuts have been used regularly for over 4 decades and are cheap, idiot proof(most of the time), easy to inspect/remove, and reliable when installed correctly.

But if the NEC really wanted to tackle "series arcs" this is one of many options that should be available to an electrician. Certainly it doesn't have to be used, but if a guy knows how to pull it off correctly, why not?

The point that I am trying to make with listing all these different methods is that the CMP has at least 50 other options available that do what AFCIs claim to do.

 

[mbrooke]

I've never had that problem.

Thats good.

I usually do as well, but sometimes I don't.

As long as you are sure it comes out right.

Who cares what the rest of the world does when we have a perfectly safe and functional product already?

I regret to say but wire nuts arent perfectly safe and functional for everyone. Ive seen guys make up wire nuts that just fly apart when you move them. The no pre-twist on the instructions gives a false sense of security to lazy electricians giving them the green light to pull off half backed splices.

Inquiring minds want to know.

Basically manufacturers are working on various devices that detect glowing connections which are intended to "complement" AFCI breakers:happyno:. Most of them are electronic units that are placed at the furthest points of each branch circuit that communicate with an electronic breaker to measure voltage drop across the circuit. Other methods involve electronic temperature sensors in devices which again communicate with an electronic breaker, most likely an AFCI with GCI technology added to it. Adding computers to a branch circuit being bulky is an understatement.

Here is one patent by Eaton:

https://www.google.com/patents/US88...ved=0CCsQ6AEwAmoVChMIoLqayoHuxgIVipANCh1fHQuJ

 

[romex jockey]

The manufacturers english....

The manufacturers english....

'Arc' is a rather purposely misnomer here fellas.

I've noted this in many canned studies btw.

Pages and pages of testing and conjecture over what is really a ground fault summarizing in 'yes it mitigated the arc' forwards the impression of Tesla coil activity when in fact all we have is a GF.

I'd caution any of you to realize that manufacturers regularly utilize such leaps of vernacular .....:lol:

In fact, i'm fairly sure i can teach my dog to say 'arc' , and have her run amock thru the nieghborhood until all the other dogs do too....

~RJ~

 

[romex jockey]

Inquiring minds want to know.

More greedy industrialists want to kill for it Pete....

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=142595

~RJ~

 

[iwire]

I regret to say but wire nuts arent perfectly safe and functional for everyone. Ive seen guys make up wire nuts that just fly apart when you move them. The no pre-twist on the instructions gives a false sense of security to lazy electricians giving them the green light to pull off half backed splices.

And your proposed solution to poor installation practices is to make them more complicated and prone to failure.

You are not thinking clearly and your lack of real world experience with typical wiring methods suggests you don't have a clue what you are talking about in regards to those practices.

 

[user 100]

But if the NEC really wanted to tackle "series arcs" this is one of many options that should be available to an electrician. Certainly it doesn't have to be used, but if a guy knows how to pull it off correctly, why not?

The point that I am trying to make with listing all these different methods is that the CMP has at least 50 other options available that do what AFCIs claim to do.

mbrooke, soldering and crimping ARE available to electricians per 110.14 and barring ahj can been used in place of wirenuts.Those two outdated wiring methods have simply fallen by the wayside not because they were better-its just that they have been replaced by something just as reliable but quicker to apply. There is no REASON to crimp or solder solid h and ns anymore-thats why you don't see it in new construction.

 

[peter d]

As long as you are sure it comes out right.

I've been making wire nut splices since I was 14 years old. It's not rocket science.

I regret to say but wire nuts arent perfectly safe and functional for everyone. Ive seen guys make up wire nuts that just fly apart when you move them. The no pre-twist on the instructions gives a false sense of security to lazy electricians giving them the green light to pull off half backed splices.

I have been giving you the benefit of the doubt and have defended you. But when you make comments like this, it's very apparent that you have no real world experience in the electrical trade. You use the title of "Electrician/Engineer" but I would say you are 100% engineer and 0% electrician. Please don't speak on behalf of actual electricians by saying that wire nuts are not safe and functional for everyone. They are safe and functional, just like every product when used according its listing and instructions.

I'll use an analogy from the world of arborculture. A chainsaw is an extremely dangerous tool when used in the hands of an unskilled person. In the hands of a trained arborist, it is crucial and essential to get the job done quickly and effectively. Just because a chainsaw is dangerous does not mean we should go back to using cross cut and hand saws. Likewise, just because certain electrical products can be very dangerous when misapplied does not mean we go back to using more primitive methods (soldering and crimping), or using the latest gimmick to come along (GCI).

Furthermore, what I find disturbing is you have the same mindset and tactics as the AFCI manufacturers. You're using misinformation and exaggerations to push a product (GCI) which itself is a gimmick, and doesn't have any value. Furthermore, you're using sloppy workmanship and poor installation practice by the unqualified as justification for a needlessly complicated "solution" to the problem of glowing connections.

 

[iwire]

I take back my 'weird' comment.


Peter D for NFPA president. :thumbsup:

 

[growler]

I regret to say but wire nuts arent perfectly safe and functional for everyone. Ive seen guys make up wire nuts that just fly apart when you move them. The no pre-twist on the instructions gives a false sense of security to lazy electricians giving them the green light to pull off half backed splices.

I will agree that wire nuts are not idiot proof and there are a lot of bad splices out there.

What product is idiot proof?

From your statement if I was trying to identify the problem I would say it's the electrician and not the wire nut that's the problem.

The whole idea is to dumb down electrical work to where anyone can do it without makeing a mistake and I don't think that's possible.

Right now one of the best things a person can do to prevent fires is put a cover on a junction box where splices are made and yet I see many boxes without covers.

The test for any new fool proof product should be if a monkey can install it without mistakes.

 

[peter d]

I take back my 'weird' comment.


Peter D for NFPA president. :thumbsup:

Thanks, I think.

If you want an NEC without AFCI's, then I'm the man for the job. :thumbsup:

 

[peter d]

But if the NEC really wanted to tackle "series arcs" this is one of many options that should be available to an electrician. Certainly it doesn't have to be used, but if a guy knows how to pull it off correctly, why not?

Because real electricians have moved away from soldering splices to those new fangled wire nuts. If you were in the trade, you would know this.

I find it astonishing and very disturbing that you've decided to undermine the excellent safety and track record of wire nuts.

 

[growler]

Basically manufacturers are working on various devices that detect glowing connections which are intended to "complement" AFCI breakers:happyno:. Most of them are electronic units that are placed at the furthest points of each branch circuit that communicate with an electronic breaker to measure voltage drop across the circuit. Other methods involve electronic temperature sensors in devices which again communicate with an electronic breaker, most likely an AFCI with GCI technology added to it. Adding computers to a branch circuit being bulky is an understatement.

I'm putting my money on artificial intelligence to solve all of man's problems. There seems to be a lack of natural human intelligence on this planet so the faster we can develope artificial intelligence the better.

 

[user 100]

..... just because certain electrical products can be very dangerous when misapplied does not mean we go back to using more primitive methods (soldering and crimping)......

:thumbsup:Bullseye, peter d. No splicing device or method available will counteract the incompetence of a few and that includes those antiquated practices.
Many old timers did excellent work but poor practice has always existed and always will. While most old joints I've run across have been fine, I've also run into those rusted out steel crimps mashed with a stakon that have turned into overheated poorly conducting disasters and soldered splices that were badly done and minimally taped.

 

[iwire]

I'm putting my money on artificial intelligence to solve all of man's problems. There seems to be a lack of natural human intelligence on this planet so the faster we can develope artificial intelligence the better.

Any greater intelligence than us will quickly figure out we are the problem and have to be eliminated.

 

[mbrooke]

And your proposed solution to poor installation practices is to make them more complicated and prone to failure.

You are not thinking clearly and your lack of real world experience with typical wiring methods suggests you don't have a clue what you are talking about in regards to those practices.

Thats not my solution, thats Eaton's solution, look at the patent. The cats out of the bag that series arcing detection will not tackle glowing connections so manufacturers are now looking for a "solution". Dont get me wrong, I am absolutely against the so called "improvements" coming to AFCIs.


Also, in regard to wire methods, where do you think Im being unrealistic?

 

[mbrooke]

Because real electricians have moved away from soldering splices to those new fangled wire nuts. If you were in the trade, you would know this.

I find it astonishing and very disturbing that you've decided to undermine the excellent safety and track record of wire nuts.

Are you guys serious? Of course I know that wire nuts make the bulk of splices, where did I say solider is still common? :blink: Talk about jumping to conclusions. I only mentioned crimp/solider connections because that could have been one of several dozen listed alternatives where an electrician can pick and choose. The NEC lets you use an outlet AFCI if the home run is conduit, doesn't mean conduit is mandatory or common in home wiring. The NEC still allows fuses, if I mention that here do guys automatically assume Im saying that fuses are still used new dwelling construction instead of breakers?

Second, ask the British and others what they think of wire nuts :lol: Dont get me wring I use wire nuts, but some guys misuse them.

 

[peter d]

Are you guys serious?

Completely serious.

Second, ask the British and others what they think of wire nuts :lol:

I could not possibly care less what the British think of wire nuts. But since you brought it up, why don't you ask me what I think of terminal blocks at every connection?

Dont get me wring I use wire nuts, but some guys misuse them.

So what?


Let me ask you a few direct questions. Would you mandate GCI? What is your "solution" to the "problem" of joule heating?

 

[growler]

Any greater intelligence than us will quickly figure out we are the problem and have to be eliminated.

I agree.

If we wish to dumb our species down to where we are little better than sheep then we deserve the ultimate Darwin award.

Probably better than getting eaten by the Morlocks ( The Time Machine).

 

[templdl]

Because real electricians have moved away from soldering splices to those new fangled wire nuts. If you were in the trade, you would know this.

I find it astonishing and very disturbing that you've decided to undermine the excellent safety and track record of wire nuts.

Yes, I remember when an electrical would strip the wire to be spiced, twist the splices together then go around with a small pot of melted solder dippig each splice. Then he would rap the splices with cloth electrical tap.