range /micro replacement

[flatlander]

I nave several customers who live in a condo complex that hasve ca range that has a built in micro oven on top.
What they want to replace with is a seperate oven/range and a over the range micro /hood.

The problem is there is no seperate circuit for the micro. The panels are full and downstairs

What would you do. I know my competiors will just tap of the counter circuit. I even saw one tapped from the 50 amp range outlet.

Thanks

 

[LEO2854]

I nave several customers who live in a condo complex that hasve ca range that has a built in micro oven on top.
What they want to replace with is a seperate oven/range and a over the range micro /hood.

The problem is there is no seperate circuit for the micro. The panels are full and downstairs

What would you do. I know my competiors will just tap of the counter circuit. I even saw one tapped from the 50 amp range outlet.

Thanks

Read 210.19(A) and if you have the 2008 hand book read EXHIBIT 210.22

 

[Sierrasparky]

I don't see how you can get away with not installing a new circuit.


I took a look at Sears installer site to see if they give a price. Well in CA the charge about 189.00 depending on Zip to add an outlet and a little over 100.00 to hang the over the range Micro.

I wonder how they can make such a promise of price?

 

[LEO2854]

I don't see how you can get away with not installing a new circuit.


I took a look at Sears installer site to see if they give a price. Well in CA the charge about 189.00 depending on Zip to add an outlet and a little over 100.00 to hang the over the range Micro.

I wonder how they can make such a promise of price?

They hide the cost in the price of the equipmet they sell and not every body has them do the install and thats how they save.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Here is what I would think about. If they bought a counter microwave they would plug it into the closest counter receptacle. Since it is built in we are not allowed to wire it to the counter recep. circuit however given no choice and knowing there is OCPD properly protecting the equip. I would probably take it from the SABC-- at least I would talk this over with the inspector- if one is involved. When I wire a range hood I always use a separate circuit specifically for this reason. I will cheat and take the gas range off it also.

 

[qcroanoke]

Here is what I would think about. If they bought a counter microwave they would plug it into the closest counter receptacle. Since it is built in we are not allowed to wire it to the counter recep. circuit however given no choice and knowing there is OCPD properly protecting the equip. I would probably take it from the SABC-- at least I would talk this over with the inspector- if one is involved. When I wire a range hood I always use a separate circuit specifically for this reason. I will cheat and take the gas range off it also.

Finally! Someone who is thinking with their head instead of thumping the code book and preaching you can't do that you sinner!

 

[electricmanscott]

Here is what I would think about. If they bought a counter microwave they would plug it into the closest counter receptacle. Since it is built in we are not allowed to wire it to the counter recep. circuit however given no choice and knowing there is OCPD properly protecting the equip. I would probably take it from the SABC-- at least I would talk this over with the inspector- if one is involved. When I wire a range hood I always use a separate circuit specifically for this reason. I will cheat and take the gas range off it also.

I can't agree with this and if I were an inspector I would not allow this. In my view it crosses the line between a minor borderline violation and a clear cut no question about it violation.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Finally! Someone who is thinking with their head instead of thumping the code book and preaching you can't do that you sinner!

Understand, I don't like doing this but if there were no possible way to do it per code and the install is safe I would think about doing it-- I have turned down many jobs like that and I really don't like jumping the code like that at all but if I got an okay from the inspector I really see no fire or shock hazard with the install.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I can't agree with this and if I were an inspector I would not allow this. In my view it crosses the line between a minor borderline violation and a clear cut no question about it violation.

I respect your opinion and I agree-- I don't like it or condone it and would labor over it-- I am not certain I would do it.

Scott other than it is code what do you see as the issue with this.

 

[Cavie]

Here is what I would think about. If they bought a counter microwave they would plug it into the closest counter receptacle. Since it is built in we are not allowed to wire it to the counter recep. circuit however given no choice and knowing there is OCPD properly protecting the equip. I would probably take it from the SABC-- at least I would talk this over with the inspector- if one is involved. When I wire a range hood I always use a separate circuit specifically for this reason. I will cheat and take the gas range off it also.

I am with Dennis on this one. As an inspector and as an electrician. I would make every attempt to run a seperate circuit but sometimes it just is not fesible. Think about it. Brand XX microwave sitting on the counter top, pluged in, SAFE. Same brand XX microwave sitting on shelf over the range pluged in the counter recptical, SAFE. Same XX microwave screwed to the cabinents, hooked to the same circuit, UNSAFE???? NOT! I have done it and I can sleep at night. I can 100% garantee that if I don't do it someone else is going to. It's not a safty issue. It's a "Not to code" issue. How many times have you turned right on red without stopping. Ever run a red light trying to beat the yellow??? Do you always cross the street only at cross walks??? Life has bigger things to worry about.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Ok so it's a " not to code issue"
I hate not doing things to code. I am always thinking that I am going to get into a problem doing so. At the same time It's work and if I don't someone else will.

I would at least try to sell them on the code compliant way.

 

[growler]

It's a "Not to code" issue. How many times have you turned right on red without stopping. Ever run a red light trying to beat the yellow??? Do you always cross the street only at cross walks??? Life has bigger things to worry about.

That's not really a good analogy. If I make a right turn on red without comming to a complete stop and I don't get rammed by another vehicle and I don't get a ticket then it's over, it's history and there is nothing anyone can do about it so I'm safe and I can sleep very well knowing that it can never come back to haunt me.

Now if I install a dozen built in microwaves in a manner that is not to code and I bill the customer for this work it's not over and is not going to be over for a long time. The next electrician that comes to the job (condo) can tell the customer that the work is not to code and they would be right. The customer now has cause for complaint because the work is not to code ( if the breaker trips you can be sure there will be a dissatisfied customer ). The only way I can be sure that this job can't come back to haunt me is to get special permission from the AHJ to install it on a small appliance circuit. If I do this I am doing compliant work because the job does meet with the approval of the AHJ.

Make sure the owner is aware of what is being done and that there are options and that this job does meet with the approval of the authorities.

 

[Sierrasparky]

You are so right, if you do it correctly and to code it's basically over. Anything else ???

 

[electricmanscott]

Understand, I don't like doing this but if there were no possible way to do it per code

We all know that that is never the case. It can always be done to code. Of course that comes with a price tag.

I respect your opinion and I agree-- I don't like it or condone it and would labor over it-- I am not certain I would do it.

Scott other than it is code what do you see as the issue with this.

In reality, there is pretty much no safety issue provided that the OCPD is functioning correctly. Based on what I see everyday, I wouldn't take that bet.

I'm all for stretching the code when necessary. I do it all the time. I believe this situation is far beyond that.

 

[jumper]

I believe this situation is far beyond that.

Do not agree. Yes the install is not "code" and is is not great, but as Dennis pointed out you can plug a counter top micro into a SABC and that is legal.

Heck code allows fridge on a SABC.

As long as the AHJ and HO are okay with this idea, I would probably seriously consider doing it. I would not be happy, but happiness does not pay the bills.

Is it wrong, yes. Is it seriously wrong, probably not.

Is there a better solution, yes. Is there a viable solution, maybe not. Money is tight.

 

[emsges]

How about this? If the microwave is now mounted above the range, this now frees up the countertop receptacle which would allow another appliance to be plugged in. If the new appliance and microwave are on at same time this could overload the circuit and trip the breaker.

 

[glene77is]

How about this?

EMS,
So, mount the MicroWave in the shelf over the range,
and then run the cord down through the cabinet,
to the countertop SABC receptical,
and plug it in (the way it was to begin with).
Then plug the toaster in also.
Then plug the mixer into the next available receptical on this same SABC.
The home-owner's options have always been there.


IMO, this is not an 'opportunity' issue.
IMO, also, this is past a 'safety' issue and into a 'not to code' problem.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Understand, I don't like doing this but if there were no possible way to do it per code and the install is safe I would think about doing it-- I have turned down many jobs like that and I really don't like jumping the code like that at all but if I got an okay from the inspector I really see no fire or shock hazard with the install.

No inspector worth anything would allow it

 

[Dennis Alwon]

No inspector worth anything would allow it

Well Jim we all know how opinionated you are and you probably just hurt Cavie's feelings-- he is an inspector

 

[Greg1707]

NEC reference

NEC reference

Before this discussion goes on too long can someone please point the relevant articles in NEC that covers over the stove microwave installations?
BTW, in my jurisdiction residential is covered by IRC. I don't see anything in IRC regarding microwave installations.