range /micro replacement

[Dennis Alwon]

Greg a SABC must cover countertop recep. The microwave above the range is not a countertop area. 210.52(B) (C)

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Well Jim we all know how opinionated you are and you probably just hurt Cavie's feelings-- he is an inspector

And personally i am surprised he would take this stand. Either it is NEC allowed or it isn't. No gray print here and no exceptions. Usually i agree with him but inspectors should not allow known violations. I do agree it is not a hazard but till code creates exception it is a violation.

 

[Greg1707]

Sabc

Sabc

Yes, I understand the microwave/vent cannot be served by the sabc but I have been told many times that the microwave/vent must be installed on a separate dedicated circuit. I have been told this by inspectors. The only reference I see is 422.16b4. This is for range hoods. However, one might interpret a range hood as something different than a microwave/vent unit.
Since this is not addressed in the IRC I wonder if 422.16b4 might refer to a product that is for commercial applications?
So, my question is, can the microwave/vent be installed on a circuit with: gas stove, kitchen lights, wall receptacles etc?
How about installing the microwave on a 20 amp circuit with the disposal?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Yes, I understand the microwave/vent cannot be served by the sabc but I have been told many times that the microwave/vent must be installed on a separate dedicated circuit. I have been told this by inspectors. The only reference I see is 422.16b4. This is for range hoods. However, one might interpret a range hood as something different than a microwave/vent unit.

I agree that section is arguable but I know the inspector that got that into the code and his reasoning was for microwave range hoods. Also the manufacturers usually require a dedicated circuit.

 

[Greg1707]

ok

ok

Well, I can't argue with that. Case closed!

 

[electricmanscott]

Every single over the range micro I have seen is also a range hood. 110.3b is also in play.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Every single over the range micro I have seen is also a range hood. 110.3b is also in play.

Good point. Also if we start allowing fixed loads on a SA circuit just where do we stop. Add DW, GD. NEC says what it says. NEC never says if it is too costly or hard to do that we can ignore it.

 

[renosteinke]

The 'separate circuit' requirement is fairly recent, and, IMO, is a classic case of "bad code." I believe it crosses the line into 'design.'

Let's look at the requirement: you're required to have the separate circuit only if there is BOTH a microwave and a hood, in the same appliance, AND they're cord & plug connected.

If you hard-wire the unit, the separate circuit isn't required. Can you tap off the SABC? I would say 'yes;' after all, the fridge, dishwasher and disposal can be on those circuits.

If you just have a range hood, and there just happens to be a microwave set in the cabinet over the range, there's no violation.

Tangent to this issue is that the requirement for TWO circuits serving the counter is also fairly new. It's quite possible that you'd be required to add a second SABC - regardless as to how little counter space there is.

Customer replaces the hood with a micro/ hood combo, and as a consequence is required to do a complete kitchen remodel? Like that's going to happen. Bad code all around.

 

[jxofaltrds]

If the cord will reach you can install a recp. in the cabinet next to the microwave as long as it is not over 20" above the counter top. 210.52(C)(5).

 

[growler]

I took a look at Sears installer site to see if they give a price. Well in CA the charge about 189.00 depending on Zip to add an outlet and a little over 100.00 to hang the over the range Micro.

I wonder how they can make such a promise of price?

I doubt if that "add an outlet" means they will run a dedicated circuit. They get there and no circuit is available and then they tell you how much to run a dedicated circuit.

That $189 just covers the cost of adding a receptacle in the cabinet over the microwave.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Every single over the range micro I have seen is also a range hood. 110.3b is also in play.

If my feeble minds is working I remember Bob looking into this an stating that a microwave range hood was listed as a microwave and not a hood. However, as I stated before this rule was written to deal with changes from hood to microwave. I have never seen a range hood come with a cord and plug.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I doubt if that "add an outlet" means they will run a dedicated circuit. They get there and no circuit is available and then they tell you how much to run a dedicated circuit.

That $189 just covers the cost of adding a receptacle in the cabinet over the microwave.

I realize thais. I was just comizerating as to Sears once again appears to be sidestepping the Law.
They got popped recently for not installing the anti-tip brackets for ovens. I hate be the one who got scalded from boiling water.

 

[electricmanscott]

If my feeble minds is working I remember Bob looking into this an stating that a microwave range hood was listed as a microwave and not a hood. However, as I stated before this rule was written to deal with changes from hood to microwave. I have never seen a range hood come with a cord and plug.

You might be right on the listing. However, it is certainly a range hood. I think that's pretty obvious.


I have seen range hoods with cords. Not many but they are out there. That doen't include the ones that I've installed cords on.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

You might be right on the listing. However, it is certainly a range hood. I think that's pretty obvious.

I totally agree-- It was Bob who started that whole thing. :grin:

 

[electricmanscott]

I totally agree-- It was Bob who started that whole thing. :grin:

Isn't it always?

 

[iwire]

You might be right on the listing. However, it is certainly a range hood. I think that's pretty obvious.

If UL calls it a microwave it is a microwave even if it looks like a blender.


As a smart guy said '110.3b is also in play.' :grin:

 

[electricmanscott]

If UL calls it a microwave it is a microwave even if it looks like a blender.


As a smart guy said '110.3b is also in play.' :grin:

I tend to not be a huge fan of 110.3b or the UL. Just for the reason you just posted. I prefer common sense over some geek in a lab.

 

[LEO2854]

I tend to not be a huge fan of 110.3b or the UL. Just for the reason you just posted. I prefer common sense over some geek in a lab.

So lets say we Deleat 110.3(B) .Who would test all the equipment that we install?
Rember most of this equipment is comeing in from china.:roll:

 

[electricmanscott]

So lets say we Deleat 110.3(B) .Who would test all the equipment that we install?
Rember most of this equipment is comeing in from china.:roll:

110.3 b does not mandate who tests equipment.

What it does is tell us we have to install per manufacturers instructions that are included in the listing or labeling of the equipment.

It is a BS cover your ass rule that in principal is fine but in reality can be a nonsense.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

It is definitely a pain when manufacturers req. your hydromassage tub to be bonding with a #8 back to the panel. That irks me to no end.