Reverse fed 480/277-2300 delta secondary

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xptpcrewx

Power System Engineer
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
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Licensed Electrical Engineer, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Certified Master Electrician
No this is the primary

Gotcha. The bond from X0 to ground is not right, but technically nothing wrong with just having the neutral there (at least none that I can think of). Is this a radial feeder only with no generation downstream?
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
"The primary feed is 3 phase 4 wire 480/277. The neutral lands on the XO and has a bonding jumper strap to the enclosure, which is tied in to ground rods."
You do not want XO bonded on the primary side, if the load is unbalanced, it will create excessive heating of the transformer. I’ve replaced several that have failed due to that. (Assuming the poco is supplying a grounded wye on their side.)
 

xptpcrewx

Power System Engineer
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Occupation
Licensed Electrical Engineer, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Certified Master Electrician
My limited understanding is unbalanced currents in the secondary will be coupled into the primary and be on the neutral, disconnecting the neutral helps cancel?

Unbalanced currents are coupled no matter what. A delta-wye transformation doesn’t pass zero sequence current. Those currents are trapped in the delta. If you interrupt the neutral, then it allows the voltage to get wacky. The utility does it all the time and it’s also common with bi-directional systems where generation is present. This is why I’m asking if there is downstream generation.
 

jminer99er

Member
Location
Sacramento, CA
Unbalanced currents are coupled no matter what. A delta-wye transformation doesn’t pass zero sequence current. Those currents are trapped in the delta. If you interrupt the neutral, then it allows the voltage to get wacky. The utility does it all the time and it’s also common with bi-directional systems where generation is present. This is why I’m asking if there is downstream generation.
Downstream is just a step-down xfrm. The 2300 is just to mitigate voltage drop, if that helps
 

xptpcrewx

Power System Engineer
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Occupation
Licensed Electrical Engineer, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Certified Master Electrician
You do not want XO bonded on the primary side, if the load is unbalanced, it will create excessive heating of the transformer. I’ve replaced several that have failed due to that. (Assuming the poco is supplying a grounded wye on their side.)

Can you elaborate?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
So what is the purpose of the green #4 thhn traveling with the medium voltage cable?

Am I understanding the above replys:

1- The XO neutral on the primary should be removed? (What can happen if it stays?)

2- The 2300V secondary is ungrounded and need ground fault detection?
Ungrounded systems still need EGC's, bonding jumpers, and grounding electrode systems. You don't want differences in potential between non current carrying components, and when a ground fault does occur, your system essentially becomes a grounded system with the fault point being the point where it is grounded. A second fault will not be much different than a fault of an ungrounded conductor on a grounded system and will result in high fault currents and operation of protection devices.
 

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
Can you elaborate?
I’ve got audio of one of those such wired transformers screaming. (208 to 480 back fed) It was recently connected, customer complained about being so noisy. My guy wired it the same way the old one was. (It was replaced because it was overheating and noisy) when I seen the photo of the connections, I knew what was wrong. Had tech remove the primary bond to XO, tech turned it back on, he had to check the output to see if it was still working because it was so quiet! Transformer was no longer overheating.
 

xptpcrewx

Power System Engineer
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Occupation
Licensed Electrical Engineer, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Certified Master Electrician
I’ve got audio of one of those such wired transformers screaming. (208 to 480 back fed) It was recently connected, customer complained about being so noisy. My guy wired it the same way the old one was. (It was replaced because it was overheating and noisy) when I seen the photo of the connections, I knew what was wrong. Had tech remove the primary bond to XO, tech turned it back on, he had to check the output to see if it was still working because it was so quiet! Transformer was no longer overheating.

When you say primary bond do you mean lifting the neutral wire or GEC?
 

synchro

Senior Member
Location
Chicago, IL
Occupation
EE
Is the primary feed from a grounded 480 volt system? If yes, you do not want XO bonded on that transformer. On the load end, yes, you will need it bonded on the LV secondary.
X-0

No, that connection should be broken. X-0 should be left floating.

In other words, the primary should be wired as if it was a delta.

Technically speaking, the feeder need not have the neutral, just an EGC.
Yes. Think of the voltages applied at the wye primary as three equal length arrows (i.e., vectors) that are lined up tail-to-tail and spaced 120° apart. On the delta secondary the arrows will line up head-to-tail in an equilateral triangle (equal sides at a 60° angle to each other). And so if you disconnect any two windings of the delta from each other, there will be zero volts across the open connection because the arrows (voltage vectors) line up perfectly with each other. Therefore zero current will flow through the delta windings if the delta is closed. However, if you try to apply unequal L-N voltages on the primary then the open-circuit voltages on the delta secondary windings will not add up to zero, and so if you close the delta high currents will flow. Floating the X0 on the primary allows the Xn-to-X0 voltages to adjust such that the vectors on the delta secondary form a closed triangle (except not equilateral), and therefore minimal currents are drawn.
 

xptpcrewx

Power System Engineer
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada, USA
Occupation
Licensed Electrical Engineer, Licensed Electrical Contractor, Certified Master Electrician
XO bond on the primary, no neutral required on input. Transformer frame is still connected to the EGC. Any fault to ground on the primary side will still active the OCP because the input source is grounded/bonded.

Yes I get that it’s not required. My question is why should it be prohibited. That is what LarryFine is saying.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
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