Romex switch legs

[jetlag]

when i do a rough and they want a ceiling box for future light i install a fan box alllways and run a 3 wire from the switch.in case they wan a thchange to a fan in the future:grin:

There are those that will blast you for typo's on here , believe me I know. I have never had the pleasure to find a ceiling box wired that way when going back to install a fan , but that is great for the next guy when you do that. :grin:

 

[jetlag]

If you think NM is a raceway, try pulling a red 14 into a 14/2 from the ceiling fan to the switch.

If you can do that, and not exceed the 'jacket fill', I'll start calling NM a raceway.

Believe it or not I saw a guy that was going to have to make a 35 mile trip back the next day because he didnt have a 2 ft longer piece of 14/3 , he set a j box in attic and took a 2 ft piece of 12/2 and soldered a #14 insulated and a #14 bare ground to the #12 bare ground and by pulling out the #12 bare ground he managed to get the 2 # 14 's in , #14, #12 and #10 nm were all colored white in those days. I asked why he didnt just run 2 pieces of #14-2 nm and he said an inspector wont notice it this way but will notice conductors not in the same cable or raceway . :roll:

 

[lakee911]

Of course, the NEC requires us to install that "waste" now.

I like Sharpies for recoloring, too. Much cleaner and neater, and hold in heat.

Any color (except white, gray or green) could be used too, right?

 

[LEO2854]

Its not that simple on an existing light , if the 3 wire was not ran to begin with.

thats when you break out the tools and run the 3wire:roll:

 

[LEO2854]

There are those that will blast you for typo's on here , believe me I know. I have never had the pleasure to find a ceiling box wired that way when going back to install a fan , but that is great for the next guy when you do that. :grin:

I am a Master Electrician in six states not a journalist for the new york times:grin:

 

[LEO2854]

I am a Master Electrician in six states not a journalist for the new york times:grin:

I'll be the first to tell you that i could not spell my way out of a paper bag.
We are all here to learn about how to get around the code book faster and better so if i spell somthing rong by all meens make sport of me i will be laughing too!:grin::grin::grin:

 

[tallgirl]

Well I don't think EMT has a busbar either. :grin:

Grab a stick of EMT with one hand, hammer with the other, smash liberally -- instant busbar.

When I was still doing volunteer electrical work for Habitat for Humanity, we were installing a heat / vent / fan fixture in the bathrooms. The guy who led the crew managed to find 14/4 -- black, red, blue, white and bare copper.

Instead of running 3-wire, you have a choice -- you could run 4-wire instead

 

[jetlag]

I am a Master Electrician in six states not a journalist for the new york times:grin:

Thats a good one, back in my day men did not take typing in school, we had a name for the ones that did . we also didnt care much for spelling and english. My subjects were physics. calculus, and chemistry. Little did I know I would one day be faced with a computer keyboard. Now I pay the price

 

[jetlag]

Taking power to the light, then running 3-wire cable to the switch, would still be perfectly legal.

I am trying to find a way to keep from wasting a lot of wire with the 2011 code. Running the power to all the switches boxes first then a 14/2 or 14/3 (for ceiling fan) adds up to a lot more cable than the old way of hitting all the ceiling boxes with power and using the switch legs. The problem is for a ceiling fan with light you would need 14/ 4 to run to the switch, neutral, hot traveler to switch , hot back to light, hot back to fan. My question is 14/4 is not available around here in nm . would it be against the code to run 2 14/2 from ceiling to switch , one for neutral and hot , the other 14/2 from switch for the light and fan . Can the white be used this way if marked? It is not the same as a traveler down this way .?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I am trying to find a way to keep from wasting a lot of wire with the 2011 code. Running the power to all the switches boxes first then a 14/2 or 14/3 (for ceiling fan) adds up to a lot more cable than the old way of hitting all the ceiling boxes with power and using the switch legs. The problem is for a ceiling fan with light you would need 14/ 4 to run to the switch, neutral, hot traveler to switch , hot back to light, hot back to fan. My question is 14/4 is not available around here in nm . would it be against the code to run 2 14/2 from ceiling to switch , one for neutral and hot , the other 14/2 from switch for the light and fan . Can the white be used this way if marked? It is not the same as a traveler down this way .?

Jetlag, it's time to change your evil ways , baby. You can run 2 sets of 14/2 as long as it is nm cable but they need to be run together to minimize the emf's that are produced if separated. Not a good way to do it.

I haven't seen anyone run the power to the lights in over 30 years around here. All power is in the switch boxes-- easier to make joints etc.

 

[480sparky]

I am trying to find a way to keep from wasting a lot of wire with the 2011 code. Running the power to all the switches boxes first then a 14/2 or 14/3 (for ceiling fan) adds up to a lot more cable than the old way of hitting all the ceiling boxes with power and using the switch legs. The problem is for a ceiling fan with light you would need 14/ 4 to run to the switch, neutral, hot traveler to switch , hot back to light, hot back to fan. My question is 14/4 is not available around here in nm . would it be against the code to run 2 14/2 from ceiling to switch , one for neutral and hot , the other 14/2 from switch for the light and fan . Can the white be used this way if marked? It is not the same as a traveler down this way .?

14/3 is available everywhere. Run power to the switch first, then 14/3 to the fan/light. Why bother taking power to the ceiling, then trying to either find 14/4 or cobble something up with 2 runs of 14-2?

Either that, or run power to the ceiling & leave it there, and install an RF-controlled fan/light. NOW look at how much NM you've saved!

I have no doubt that more & more supply houses will start to stock 14-4 very soon.

 

[lakee911]

14/3 is available everywhere. Run power to the switch first, then 14/3 to the fan/light. Why bother taking power to the ceiling...

To save wire, if your light is close to your panel, then run 14/2 there and 14/3 to the switch. If you're wiring a fan/light, then it makes sense to hit up the switch box first.

You can run 2 sets of 14/2 as long as it is nm cable but they need to be run together to minimize the emf's that are produced if separated.

If you used the 14/2 as two seperate switch legs, could this be considered parallel conductors?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

If you used the 14/2 as two seperate switch legs, could this be considered parallel conductors?

How is this parallel? I don't see any parallel setup here.

 

[jetlag]

14/3 is available everywhere. Run power to the switch first, then 14/3 to the fan/light. Why bother taking power to the ceiling, then trying to either find 14/4 or cobble something up with 2 runs of 14-2?

Either that, or run power to the ceiling & leave it there, and install an RF-controlled fan/light. NOW look at how much NM you've saved!

I have no doubt that more & more supply houses will start to stock 14-4 very soon.

Draw out a simple plan and you will see the amount of wasted cable when running the power to the switches first , the 14/4 should not be much more expensive that 14/3 unless they want to burn you for a rare item . For lights without a fan the 14/3 can be used , Im only looking at 4 or 5 pieces of 14/4 in most houses. But my question was can a 14/2 be used with both conductors as a return from the switchs with the traveler to switch in another cable ?

 

[Dennis Alwon]

But my question was can a 14/2 be used with both conductors as a return from the switchs with the traveler to switch in another cable ?

I answered this question-- do you not trust my response or did you miss it?

 

[480sparky]

Draw out a simple plan and you will see the amount of wasted cable when running the power to the switches first , the 14/4 should not be much more expensive that 14/3 unless they want to burn you for a rare item . For lights without a fan the 14/3 can be used , Im only looking at 4 or 5 pieces of 14/4 in most houses. But my question was can a 14/2 be used with both conductors as a return from the switchs with the traveler to switch in another cable ?

You must do some very weird wiring.

You need cable between the switch and ceiling, no matter what.

Why not use 14/3 instead of 14/4?

As for cost, look at the price difference between 14/2 and 14/3, then extrapolate to 14/4. 14/3 is not just 33% more than 14/2 simply because it has 33% more conductors. It's more like 50% more. So if 14/4 is 50% more than 14/3............ Well, you do the math.

If you want to cobble together two 14/2 between the ceiling & switch, start looking at your labor units.

 

[glene77is]

I think the idea behind this is not to have two white wires coming in to a light fixture

IMO, the red or black 'hot' is the only thing that should be feeding a load.

IMO, the white has to be marked so that
it fits into the scheme of only colored wires being used to feed a load.

I think we should be emphasizing that only colored wires are feeders.
Thus, when the white is marked,
it then becomes like the colored feeders.

 

[480sparky]

Draw out a simple plan and you will see the amount of wasted cable when running the power to the switches first ,.......

Wow. You're right! I'm saving a TON of wire!

 

[jetlag]

You must do some very weird wiring.

You need cable between the switch and ceiling, no matter what.

Why not use 14/3 instead of 14/4?

As for cost, look at the price difference between 14/2 and 14/3, then extrapolate to 14/4. 14/3 is not just 33% more than 14/2 simply because it has 33% more conductors. It's more like 50% more. So if 14/4 is 50% more than 14/3............ Well, you do the math.

If you want to cobble together two 14/2 between the ceiling & switch, start looking at your labor units.

Its not "weird" to hit a ceiling box first when power is near by, and when it is not far to ceiling box in the next room. Where did I say no cable was needed between the switch and ceiling ?? I did do the math but you must not have tried a simple lay out . Now matter what hitting the ceiling box first uses less wire and the labour is the same

 

[480sparky]

Its not "weird" to hit a ceiling box first when power is near by, ...........

So where do you have power in a ceiling besides the box for the light? I generally have a receptacle within 5' of a switch box.

.......... I did do the math but you must not have tried a simple lay out .........

Yes I did.