SABC Load

[hurk27]

I guess the above can be simplified by saying an SABC circuit is not for where a receptacle is required to be placed for a fixed in place load, with the above 3 exceptions excluded.

the SABC circuits are to feed outlets put in place for convenience. in the locations of 210.52(A) and (C)

 

[little george]

Hurk- That's something I can agree with. Thank you for your detailed logical answer.

 

[iwire]

SABC cannot be on the circuit with a disposal. Read 210.52(B)(1&2)

Even if it is cord and plug connected?

You have no clue about residential ? No its a no go Bob. Never has been and never will

Jim, can I plug a fixed in place under cabinet light into the SABC?

 

[iwire]

While this had come up at a few of my IAEI western sectional conferences I have been to across many states, the CMPs at those meetings have always answered the same that SABC circuits could not supply dishwashers, micro-mates, disposals, or any other built-in appliances, that are mounted and not intended to be moved from place to place, any appliance the requires a receptacle to be located in a space just for that appliance is not a SABC allowed appliance, there are only three exceptions that are specifically allowed, refrigerator, gas fired range, and a wall mounted clock, now with your thinking why would they needed these exceptions? as under your thinking they would not even needed the exceptions in the code.

So if a home owner buys a cord connected under cabinet light and secures it to the cabinets the CMP says they have to run an extension cord out to the living room? :grin:

 

[electricmanscott]

Does the code prohibit installing the waste disposal on the SABC? In practice, I would not do it but I am an inspector and I see numerous attempts to save money and this would save the cost of a individual circuit.

Code References please.

Many posts later....

Dennis- There is nothing wrong code wise with installing a disposal on one of the SABC's. The code cautions you about doing this because it loads up the SABC. As a practical matter, I would not do it for a customer but as an inspector of 25 years I've learned the contractors want code references and this issue of the SABC is wide open to subjective interpretation. As for not recognizing receptacles in the cabinets, we do it all day long with appliance garages and Microwave enclosures.

Then why did you ask?

I agree 100% with Dennis. This one is about as clear as it gets when it comes to the NEC. I also believe Bob is just stirring the pot.

 

[electricmanscott]

Who would put a cord and plug on a disposal and then plug it into the outlets on the countertop. Of course, you cannot stop that from being done but you cannot wire the disposal to the SABC.

422.16 (B) 2 and 3 would prohibit that.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Jim, can I plug a fixed in place under cabinet light into the SABC?

Of course but we are talking about wiring a disposal to the SABC. You cannot do that. I already stated you could run a cord from the disposal above the counter top but you cannot have the SABC under the counter for other appliances.

 

[charlie b]

Is the disposal a small appliance? Answer: Yes

True, but not relevant. The code does not say that the SABCs are reserved for the use of small appliances. It says the SABCs shall provide power to certain receptacle outlets, and shall not provide power to any other outlets. The list of outlets that an SABC is allowed (required) to power includes those that serve the kitchen countertop, and does not include a receptacle under the countertop intended to be used by a disposal.

 

[charlie b]

Jim, can I plug a fixed in place under cabinet light into the SABC?

Jim hasn't answered yet, but my answer is yes. I believe that a basic concept (and I concede that you have cited articles that run counter to this concept) is that once the receptacle is installed, the interest of the NEC is ended. A homeowner is not governed by the NEC, and is free to plug in anything they want. IMHO a table lamp that the HO sets upon the kitchen counter is no different from a puck light that an EC screws to the underside of the cabinet; both are plug and cord connected, and both are outside the scope of the NEC.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Jim hasn't answered yet, but my answer is yes. I believe that a basic concept (and I concede that you have cited articles that run counter to this concept) is that once the receptacle is installed, the interest of the NEC is ended. A homeowner is not governed by the NEC, and is free to plug in anything they want. IMHO a table lamp that the HO sets upon the kitchen counter is no different from a puck light that an EC screws to the underside of the cabinet; both are plug and cord connected, and both are outside the scope of the NEC.

ditto .

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

If we allow the disposal then why not the dish washer, built in microwave, hood fan ,insta hot, trash compactor as well ?
The disposal ,dish washer,built in microwave , hood fan,insta hot,v trash compactor are not small appliances.

 

[Ruff-N]

The answer lies in NEC 2005 Art. 210.52 (B) (2) Exc. 1 and 2. so the disposal outlet would not fall under the exception. And then the additional load of the disposal would cause problems IMO with breakers tripping not good practice for a EC.

 

[iwire]

I believe that a basic concept (and I concede that you have cited articles that run counter to this concept) is that once the receptacle is installed, the interest of the NEC is ended. A homeowner is not governed by the NEC, and is free to plug in anything they want. IMHO a table lamp that the HO sets upon the kitchen counter is no different from a puck light that an EC screws to the underside of the cabinet; both are plug and cord connected, and both are outside the scope of the NEC.

And I strongly disagree with that view. There are as you admitted to NEC sections that in my view clearly demonstrate the NEC goes beyond the outlets.

The requirement for a disconnect in a florescent fixture is an example of an NEC section that applies past the outlet.

Back on topic if the NEC stops at the outlet it could not have a section about cord and plug connected disposals at all.

422.16 is specifically about cord and plug connected disposals, if the NEC stops that the outlet that section could not exist.

There is nothing in the NEC that limits its application to only electricians, it applies to HOs as well.

 

[iwire]

If we allow the disposal then why not the dish washer, built in microwave, hood fan ,insta hot, trash compactor as well ?
The disposal ,dish washer,built in microwave , hood fan,insta hot,v trash compactor are not small appliances.

Jim, personally I think the intent is to prevent the disposal from being plugged into a SABC receptacle. I just do not see the section that prohibits it.

 

[charlie b]

And I strongly disagree with that view.

I know you do.

There are as you admitted to NEC sections that in my view clearly demonstrate the NEC goes beyond the outlets.

Which is not the same thing as saying it applies to anything plugged into any outlet at any location.

There is nothing in the NEC that limits its application to only electricians, it applies to HOs as well.

I am not near a copy of the book, but I think there is something that limits its scope in essentially that way. Somewhere early on the NEC states that its scope is limited to the installation of electrical equipment.

If a HO wants to install a new branch circuit, and has the authority per local rules to do that, then the NEC applies to that task. So when I said the NEC does not apply to a HO, I should have said that it does not apply to what the HO does with the outlets in the home.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Jim, personally I think the intent is to prevent the disposal from being plugged into a SABC receptacle. I just do not see the section that prohibits it.

Bob I am confused and I am sure others are by what you are saying. Are you saying that I can install a sabc receptacle in the kitchen cabinet for the disposal? Or are you saying you can put a long whip on the disposal and plug it in above the counter when you need it?

 

[electricmanscott]

Bob I am confused and I am sure others are by what you are saying. Are you saying that I can install a sabc receptacle in the kitchen cabinet for the disposal? Or are you saying you can put a long whip on the disposal and plug it in above the counter when you need it?

Neither one is code compliant.

 

[roger]

Okay, let me get this straight, if I plug my table saw in to a SABC to do a kitchen remodel I am in danger of going to jail. Ain't this here a mess. :grin:

Roger

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Okay, let me get this straight, if I plug my table saw in to a SABC to do a kitchen remodel I am in danger of going to jail. Ain't this here a mess. :grin:

Roger

You are the mess.... Plugging that saw in is fine but there will be one heck of a mess when that wood goes thru it. :grin:

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Neither one is code compliant.

I agree but I am trying to figure out where the "badger" is going with this again.