Salesman put me in a quandry

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stevebea

stevebea

Senior Member
Location
Southeastern PA
I was handed a job folder the other day that has me scratching my head trying to figure out how to do this job and make any coin the way it was priced. A church has a 40 year old 5kw Kohler generator which hasnt run for years. Our salesman gave them a price ( $800 less than we charge for a residental install ) on a 8.5kw Kohler RES with a Kohler RDT transfer switch. This setup is to serve 120 volt loads only. The problem is the building voltage is 208/120 3 phase and the RDT is a residental transfer switch set up for 240 volt. I could get a Kohler 100 amp transfer switch with 208v source sensing but it is $750 more expensive and does not have a loadcenter like the RDT the salesman used in his spread sheet to price the job. I could put a single phase isolation xfmr ahead of the transfer switch but that would be pretty costly. Could I use a buck/boost xfmr? I havent done a site visit yet and dont know the loads but there arent any loads being added and the 5kw took care of the existing load. Any ideas? Thanks.
 
iwire

iwire

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Massachusetts
Is the issue that the 240 volt transfer switch will see 208 as a failure and try to transfer?

It is not an adjustable value?
 
stevebea

stevebea

Senior Member
Location
Southeastern PA
iwire said:
Is the issue that the 240 volt transfer switch will see 208 as a failure and try to transfer?

It is not an adjustable value?
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Yes, that is my issue. Undervoltage dropout is 80% and undervoltage pickup is 85% and even with the Kohler accessory board that is a preset value, non adjustable.
 
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hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
I have not had any issues with this on the Generac transfer switches, which I believe are made by Asco, and I think the Kohler transfer switches are also made by Asco, but are of a somewhat different design, but I don't know if it is different enough to give problems.
 
iwire

iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
stevebea said:
Yes, that is my issue. Undervoltage dropout is 80% and undervoltage pickup is 85% and even with the Kohler accessory board that is a preset value, non adjustable.
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That is a pain.

I will keep thinking but short of petersonra suggestion of modifying the transfer switch nothing comes to mind that you have not mentioned.

At my own home I would modify what I had to, for a customer I cannot see doing it.
 
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hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
stevebea said:
Yes, that is my issue. Undervoltage dropout is 80% and undervoltage pickup is 85% and even with the Kohler accessory board that is a preset value, non adjustable.
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I think the manufacture uses 230 volts as the nominal voltage, instead of 240, but you can check with the switch manufacture to make sure.
 
stevebea

stevebea

Senior Member
Location
Southeastern PA
iwire said:
That is a pain.

I will keep thinking but short of petersonra suggestion of modifying the transfer switch nothing comes to mind that you have not mentioned.

At my own home I would modify what I had to, for a customer I cannot see doing it.
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My thoughts exactly. If it was my residence I would modify the transfer switch but cannot do it in good conscience for a customer.
 
Smart $

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
stevebea said:
Thanks, that is my next step to call Kohler.
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Why are you even questioning this setup? (rhetorical) 208/120 3? utility and 120/240 1? generator simply do not get along. Even if you get it to play nice with 2 legs, what would you do with the third? (also rhetorical) As Brian said, drop it back in the salesman's lap...
 
stevebea

stevebea

Senior Member
Location
Southeastern PA
Smart $ said:
Why are you even questioning this setup? (rhetorical) 208/120 3? utility and 120/240 1? generator simply do not get along. Even if you get it to play nice with 2 legs, what would you do with the third? (also rhetorical) As Brian said, drop it back in the salesman's lap...
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Smart, I am not concerned about 3 phase as that is not the issue, this is a standby generator serving only 120v loads.
 
Smart $

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
stevebea said:
Smart, I am not concerned about 3 phase as that is not the issue, this is a standby generator serving only 120v loads.
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I don't see how you cannot be concerned...??? The 120V loads can be and likely are powered by all three legs... each of the three legs is 120V to Neutral. A 120/240 1? generator only has two legs at 120V to Neutral.

PS: ...unless you're not telling us something. For example, it's a 120/208 1? 3W system and you errantly said it was 208/120 3?. Or you are only powering such a subpanel...???
 
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stevebea

stevebea

Senior Member
Location
Southeastern PA
brian john said:
Seems to me the salesman put himself in a quandary, drop it back in his lap. His sale, his issue.
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mjf said:
Agree. Find out why the salesman sold them the wrong product.
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Well, I'm left to clean up the mess... he's off to his next sale. His electrical background is limited and he dosent know how to use his resources as in speaking to people more knowledgable than himself. This is the same salesman that sold a lighting retrofit job two month ago and there are two skids of the wrong lighting retro kits sitting back at the shop which we will pay a 35% restocking charge. I have seen his type come and go.
 
C

cdslotz

Senior Member
stevebea said:
Well, I'm left to clean up the mess... he's off to his next sale. His electrical background is limited and he dosent know how to use his resources as in speaking to people more knowledgable than himself. This is the same salesman that sold a lighting retrofit job two month ago and there are two skids of the wrong lighting retro kits sitting back at the shop which we will pay a 35% restocking charge. I have seen his type come and go.
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Most salesmen that I know that has a customer wanting something that requires some engineering and install will team up with an EC (me) that can do all of that. Then give the EC (me) the quote to work up the price for the customer.
I would promptly mark up his quote for the material in my quote.
So you are willing to take his bill of material, which is wrong, add a bunch of adapt parts to make it "work"?
Doing it you way, the customer has a hack job that is more expensive than the proper install that you can't warranty, nor will the generator mfr because you installed the wrong components?
Did your boss hand you this job to do this way??
Really????
 
stevebea

stevebea

Senior Member
Location
Southeastern PA
Smart $ said:
I don't see how you cannot be concerned...??? The 120V loads can be and likely are powered by all three legs... each of the three legs is 120V to Neutral. A 120/240 1? generator only has two legs at 120V to Neutral.

PS: ...unless you're not telling us something. For example, it's a 120/208 1? 3W system and you errantly said it was 208/120 3?. Or you are only powering such a subpanel...???
Click to expand...

This is a single phase 100 amp subpanel.
 
C

cdslotz

Senior Member
stevebea said:
This is the same salesman that sold a lighting retrofit job two month ago and there are two skids of the wrong lighting retro kits sitting back at the shop which we will pay a 35% restocking charge. I have seen his type come and go.
Click to expand...

Oh and this one really puzzles me.
A salesman sold direct to a customer light fixtures and expects YOU to pay a restock fee??????
 
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