Servicing recessed mercury-vapor lighting

[LarryFine]

Hey, gang, does anyone here have experiencing servicing these light fixtures? How do they open? Do they take standard internal parts? There appears to be zero above-ceiling access.

How does one arrive on the job (overnight - in a large store) with the correct ballast parts without knowing what's in there now? I'll need to rent a boom lift to get up to the 35'-or-so height.

I need to submit a proposal to restore opertaion to these fixtures, but don't know the type (look like mercury-vapor) or wattage. Supply voltage shouldn't be an issue with multi-tap ballasts.

There's a skylight in the center, and it's directly above the escalators. As usual, any and all help is appreciated. Phone-pix below:

 

[iwire]

I would expect these to be Metal Halides, not Merc Vapor.

The chrome trim will likely pull down. Even if you knew with absolute certainty what lamp and ballasts they are you would have to show up with enough lamps, ballasts and sockets to replace them all to make this a one night job.

IMO price it as a two trip deal. It's not your fault that a designer placed fixtures in an expensive to service location.

 

[iwire]

How tight are you with your supply house? Would they let you take a bunch of different lamps and ballasts to the job and just return what you don't use?

 

[JES2727]

I would expect these to be Metal Halides, not Merc Vapor.

The chrome trim will likely pull down. Even if you knew with absolute certainty what lamp and ballasts they are you would have to show up with enough lamps, ballasts and sockets to replace them all to make this a one night job.

IMO price it as a two trip deal. It's not your fault that a designer placed fixtures in an expensive to service location.

I agree they are likely to be metal halide, probably 175 watt. The ones I've worked on have a ballast that resembles an oversized fluorescent ballast, mounted on the frame of the fixture. The trim pulls down, and if it's difficult to reach the ballast you can take nearly the whole fixture apart from below. It's a real pain in the keester.

 

[LarryFine]

IMO price it as a two trip deal. It's not your fault that a designer placed fixtures in an expensive to service location.

Absolutely. Thanx.

If the store "engineer" can't tell me what they are, I'll have to investigate.

 

[LarryFine]

How tight are you with your supply house? Would they let you take a bunch of different lamps and ballasts to the job and just return what you don't use?

I doubt they'g go for that, but just how many different parts sets would that take? There are eight of these fixtures. I'd rather take one apart and know what tools and parts I need, and make a second trip.

These fixtures are 13 years old, went out one by one (I'm told), and they're not in a hurry to get them fixed, but eventually. We've already done work for these people, so I believe they trust our judgement.

 

[LarryFine]

It's a real pain in the keester.

Oh, joy! :roll: ))

 

[Cow]

Pretty farfetched but do they still have the prints for the mall? Maybe they'll tell you what size/type?

Otherwise it looks like a two trip deal to me also. Show up the first night and test lamps and ballasts, come back the second with parts. At least it's warm work, it was chilly outside today.

EDIT: I personally think it's too much trouble to guess. You show up with 175 watt metal halide ballasts and lamps and come to find out they're pulse start or they're 100w. Easier to make two trips and know exactly what you need the second night.

 

[jeremysterling]

Larry,

I troubleshot some HID cans in a lobby. I took a bad lamp out and put what I knew to be good lamp (70W metal halide) in an energized fixture. It did not light. Must be bad ballast right?

Nope. Got the instruction sheet which said fixture must be turned off to "reset" and then turned back on. Turned the breaker off and back on and the lamp fired up.

 

[LarryFine]

Got the instruction sheet which said fixture must be turned off to "reset" and then turned back on. Turned the breaker off and back on and the lamp fired up.

I've found the same thing with some electronic fluorescents, too, after a short power outage. Thanx for the reminder.

While I was there, I asked where the lighting panels might be, and their response was that they died individually.

I will check for power before starting anyway, when I go back. I'm not servicing these things hot! No way, no how!

 

[sparky=t]

Pretty farfetched but do they still have the prints for the mall? Maybe they'll tell you what size/type?
.

i agree, unless it is an anchor store and then good luck with that! look like M.H. to me

 

[LarryFine]

i agree, unless it is an anchor store and then good luck with that! look like M.H. to me

Would you believe it's a Sears? Why does being an anchor store (one that doesn't change, you mean?) make a difference?

 

[sparky=t]

Would you believe it's a Sears? Why does being an anchor store (one that doesn't change, you mean?) make a difference?

Anchor store is an major retailer who has a substantial sq ft of space at the mall, with special lease agreements and supply all their own utilities and environmental controls , not Dependant on mall operations.

you would have better luck getting plans or deign build documents from the operations manager of the mall if it were not an anchor store than from the anchor themselves.

 

[Dnkldorf]

I would make one trip to look at them and verify line voltage.

If it's 120V, I'd see if I couldn't wire the socket with the 120V, thus bypassing any ballast, and screw in a 23W Compact flood bulb par 38, or a par 38 LED bulb and be done.

 

[LarryFine]

Anchor store is an major retailer who has a substantial sq ft of space at the mall, with special lease agreements and supply all their own utilities and environmental controls , not Dependant on mall operations.

Well, this one certainly qualifies. It's the same store we replaced the sub-metering in a few months ago, with a 2500a 480/277 service.

you would have better luck getting plans or deign build documents from the operations manager of the mall if it were not an anchor store than from the anchor themselves.

I will ask the store management personnel if they have such plans in their possession, or have access to them.

 

[LarryFine]

I would make one trip to look at them and verify line voltage.

Each trip up to the ceiling means a $300 rental fee, plus a $75-each-way delivery charge, before my labor and mark-up.

If it's 120V, I'd see if I couldn't wire the socket with the 120V, thus bypassing any ballast, and screw in a 23W Compact flood bulb par 38, or a par 38 LED bulb and be done.

I doubt they'd be bright enough for them, but it's certainly an idea to consider. If there's a reflector, I could try 300w-equivalent CFL's. I may or may not need mogul-to-Edison adapters.

 

[Dnkldorf]

I doubt they'd be bright enough for them, but it's certainly an idea to consider. If there's a reflector, I could try 300w-equivalent CFL's. I may or may not need mogul-to-Edison adapters.

Did a shopping center with this approach. They had about 70 recessed fixtures out. Ballasts alone were like $150/ pop.

So we converted one side by side with a par 38 CF, 100W equivalent...I think 23W or maybe 32W.... I forget. They loved the initial cost and the maintenance costs. A little less light, but better color all around.

I have yet to see a recessed with a mogul base, do they make such a thing?

 

[LarryFine]

I have yet to see a recessed with a mogul base, do they make such a thing?

I was thinking that the majority of HID bulbs are mogul based. These have the large dimple in the tip that the internal support grips, which is why I thought they were mercury vapor.

 

[kbsparky]

Has anyone changed those bulbs in the past decade? Maybe all you need is a long stick, with a bulb grip on the end ....

 

[jeremysterling]

Has anyone changed those bulbs in the past decade? Maybe all you need is a long stick, with a bulb grip on the end ....

Yeah, except the trim looks like it has a lens. Probably would have been smarter to leave the lens out, seeing how high these are located, to make relamping easier.

Co-worker went today to Sears to change ballast on recess cans in the entrance canopies. I'll ask him what wattage they are.

These look to have medium base. I think you can get up to 175W MH lamp with medium base. The dimple on the end indicates an "ED" lamp-shape as opposed to the button ended "BT" lamp-shape.

Bypassing the ballast for CFL lamps will probably not work since the Sears I saw had 277V lights.