Shop size poll, how many people

[mjf]

Just me

No problem finding a helper if and when I need one

 

[IrishRugger]

Just me although if I need some help say on a large house my wife can help me with making up boxes at rough in, or installing devices & fixtures during the finish. As far as pulling in long wire runs in conduit I usuall push shorter run but I'm going to try the weight on the fishtape thing.

 

[charlie b]

I worked for an electrical contractor for about a year, and not a recent year. They have about 350 employees. I was in their Design Build department, obviously in the "design" side of the business, working with a staff of about 10.

 

[Mule]

The advantage to having more than one man is that you increse your available man hours.You also can spread your overhead among them. many of your overhead costs are fixed and the additional costs are easily absorbed by the increase in billable hours.

Having two men does not double your overhed

If you need $800.00 per day one man would bill at $100.00 for 8 hours

with two men you can reach your target in 4 hours 2x100=200x4=800

Ok, understood, but if you take your tools OFF and are running say 4 jman and trucks, what does your profit expectations do to your billable hour cost? I understand the overhead cost division, but you have to re-gain what you lost by taking your tools off??...EDS-U-CATE me...

To me it would take quite a bit of mark up to recover. So, all Im saying is that it looks like to me that having a 3-5 men would not be that much more profit than just putting your tools back on...

 

[peter d]

2.9 billion? What are you building?

A birdhouse.

 

[Rewire]

Ok, understood, but if you take your tools OFF and are running say 4 jman and trucks, what does your profit expectations do to your billable hour cost? I understand the overhead cost division, but you have to re-gain what you lost by taking your tools off??...EDS-U-CATE me...

To me it would take quite a bit of mark up to recover. So, all Im saying is that it looks like to me that having a 3-5 men would not be that much more profit than just putting your tools back on...

lets say you bill $60/hr half covers you and half covers overhead

so $30 for you and $30 for overhead

now you add four guys each billing at $60/hr 0r $240/hr

each gets $30/hr for wage and burden or 4 x $30 = $120

subtract from $240 - $120 = $120

subtract your $30 for overhead $120-$30 = $90

now subtract your $30 so $90 - 30 = $60

lets say your overhead doubled so take another $30 that still leaves you with $30/hr profit

you work with your tools 8 hours and then spend an additional 4 hours bidding jobs doing estimates invoicing etc.. average day 12 hours working as a one man show

I work 8 hours doing paper work ,bidding,ordering parts , checking jobs meeting new customers ,building a business average day 8 hours


30 x 40 = $1200 week for one man show working 60 hours


(30 + 30 ) x 40 = $2400 for me working 40 hour week

 

[William1978]

A birdhouse.

: Thats funny right there :

 

[William1978]

I work for a company that has about 200 employees.

 

[Red Wiggler]

Good sized shop

Good sized shop

Around 500, maybe more.

 

[Mule]

lets say you bill $60/hr half covers you and half covers overhead

so $30 for you and $30 for overhead

now you add four guys each billing at $60/hr 0r $240/hr

each gets $30/hr for wage and burden or 4 x $30 = $120

subtract from $240 - $120 = $120

subtract your $30 for overhead $120-$30 = $90

now subtract your $30 so $90 - 30 = $60

lets say your overhead doubled so take another $30 that still leaves you with $30/hr profit

you work with your tools 8 hours and then spend an additional 4 hours bidding jobs doing estimates invoicing etc.. average day 12 hours working as a one man show

I work 8 hours doing paper work ,bidding,ordering parts , checking jobs meeting new customers ,building a business average day 8 hours


30 x 40 = $1200 week for one man show working 60 hours


(30 + 30 ) x 40 = $2400 for me working 40 hour week

All sounds good, rewire, and I appreciate your explanation.

This is how I operate.....

My markup on materials, and profit on my helper pays all of my overhead.

25% markup x $3000 to $5000/mo in materials=$1000,

$15/hr profit on 30 billable helper hours=$450x4.3 wk/mo=$1935

total $2935 mothly business cost.

My helper sub contracts to me as labor only at a premium of $20/hr , but only gets paid per billable hour. He pays his own taxes.

My $65/hr goes right in my pocket, of course I have to pay tax's on that. (yes, this a target, and doesnt alway work out 100%, but Im getting better all the time)
So $65x28-30 billable hours/wk...is $1800-1950/wk.........Paper work is done in one morning per week, invoicing is done on the job, on customers time while the helper is rolling up tools, and the 28-30 billable hours is spread out across 4 1/2 days.

Not knocking anyone else's method at all, its' just that to make more doesnt make me want to become a office person, which I would hate. Now for the next person, that's ok, with me...

However, one of these days, I wont be able to perform 100% as jman, and I'll be forced to do the next best thing, which is what you do....:grin:

 

[cadpoint]

My helper sub contracts to me as labor only at a premium of $20/hr , but only gets paid per billable hour. He pays his own taxes.

....:grin:

Your not doing you new person any favors! JMO

I'd be smiling too, the IRS might be to, only because you used the word sub-contractor, but then he wouldn't be a "helper".

There's about 4-5 major tax laws that state what an employee employer relationship is, a helper or laborer is under your direction supervision which is one of them and a contractor isn't.

 

[bradleyelectric]

Kitchen areas in the Fontainebleau, in Las Vegas. 42 foot to the ceiling, really a pain when you have to work up there. Most of the stuff has been on a 12 foot ladder and a 20 foot man lift (drop ceilings no taller than 14 foot, hides a lot of pipe


Supposed to be done this fall...

There was an old time little gambling hall there. I forget it's name, but remember I couldn't lose enough money to get out of there.

 

[Mule]

Your not doing you new person any favors! JMO

I'd be smiling too, the IRS might be to, only because you used the word sub-contractor, but then he wouldn't be a "helper".

There's about 4-5 major tax laws that state what an employee employer relationship is, a helper or laborer is under your direction supervision which is one of them and a contractor isn't.

Remember this is my son in law, he has a full time job as a fireman.


We are in the process right now of making a legal partnership, which in truth is the sceniario,........ then the billable hours will be split at a percentage base upon an agreement.

 

[bradleyelectric]

Remember this is my son in law, he has a full time job as a fireman.


We are in the process right now of making a legal partnership, which in truth is the sceniario,........ then the billable hours will be split at a percentage base upon an agreement.

So what licenses and general liability insurances does he cover?

 

[Rewire]

So what licenses and general liability insurances does he cover?

Not to mention after a 48 hour shift at the firehouse Mules got him working another 30,must not want any gran kids.

 

[Mule]

So what licenses and general liability insurances does he cover?

We are a partnership in that reguard. I am the EC and he is a partner working as an Licensed apprentice.

Not to mention after a 48 hour shift at the firehouse Mules got him working another 30,must not want any gran kids.

Ha that's funny, he manages to get that covered too.......besides he works 24/on and 48/off...I just swing most of my hours to fit his schedule. Most of time it works out, not always.

 

[bradleyelectric]

Not to mention after a 48 hour shift at the firehouse Mules got him working another 30,must not want any gran kids.

I'm not concerned with his personal life. I'm just looking at the fact he is claiming a certain amount of overhead while he is claiming an employee as a subcontractor. Without the correct licenses this is not a legal arrangement. Without the correct insurances this is a mess. If this person gets hurt on a customers property the customer may be who gets sued. They may want to know this is what is taking place. Without paying the correct amount of taxes this is a cabinet candidate. Some may call people that work within this type of arrangement a trunk slammer.

 

[Mule]

I'm not concerned with his personal life. I'm just looking at the fact he is claiming a certain amount of overhead while he is claiming an employee as a subcontractor. Without the correct licenses this is not a legal arrangement. Without the correct insurances this is a mess. If this person gets hurt on a customers property the customer may be who gets sued. They may want to know this is what is taking place. Without paying the correct amount of taxes this is a cabinet candidate. Some may call people that work within this type of arrangement a trunk slammer.

as I said, we are in the process of getting away from this contractor arrangment. and Yes the license is the problem, and recieving work direction as stated.. and that's what we found out. The new arrangment is a partnership, not a sole-propieritor. Partnerships are pefectly legal as long as one person holds the EC license in Oklahoma. We are completely covered with liability and bond. We do qualify for a exemption for WC under Okla. law as (< 5 family members).

Call it what you want, but we dont have a trunk, nor do we slam things.....:grin: The problem with this arrangment is thats its unique to family and I cant hire outside help, unless I re-arrange legaly.

And I can assume that the rest of you stone throwers have a completely clean nose??..:grin:

 

[bradleyelectric]

as I said, we are in the process of getting away from this contractor arrangment. and Yes the license is the problem, and recieving work direction as stated.. and that's what we found out. The new arrangment is a partnership, not a sole-propieritor. Partnerships are pefectly legal as long as one person holds the EC license in Oklahoma. We are completely covered with liability and bond. We do qualify for a exemption for WC under Okla. law as (< 5 family members).

Call it what you want, but we dont have a trunk, nor do we slam things.....:grin: The problem with this arrangment is thats its unique to family and I cant hire outside help, unless I re-arrange legaly.

And I can assume that the rest of you have a completely clean nose??..:grin:

Ok, I can understand how the partnership/ insurance arrangement works. Only 1 of you needs to carry the masters license. You don't need to carry WC as a primary here either. I'm a corp, so I never looked into how a partnership would handle this. This is different than a partnership vs subcontractor arrangement. I understand you are moving to get "legal".

 

[Rewire]

as I said, we are in the process of getting away from this contractor arrangment. and Yes the license is the problem, and recieving work direction as stated.. and that's what we found out. The new arrangment is a partnership, not a sole-propieritor. Partnerships are pefectly legal as long as one person holds the EC license in Oklahoma. We are completely covered with liability and bond. We do qualify for a exemption for WC under Okla. law as (< 5 family members).

Call it what you want, but we dont have a trunk, nor do we slam things.....:grin: The problem with this arrangment is thats its unique to family and I cant hire outside help, unless I re-arrange legaly.

And I can assume that the rest of you stone throwers have a completely clean nose??..:grin:

I would recommend looking into a workmans comp policy for both partners.When I injured my shoulder it was on a job so my workmans comp covered what would have been a bankrupting medical bill,ambulance ride,emergency room,three hours of surgery, several visits to the orthopedic surgeon, rehab three times a week for a year.